Episode 1: Courtney Block

Keywords

paranormal, libraries, ghost stories, research, Courtney Block, haunted libraries, ESP, academic journey, spiritualism, citizen science

Summary

In this engaging conversation, Jared Howell speaks with librarian and author Courtney Block about her journey into the paranormal, her academic career, and the unique role libraries play in paranormal research. They explore the comfort found in the paranormal, the influence of religious backgrounds, and the importance of citizen science. Courtney shares spooky stories from libraries and discusses the intersection of gender and the paranormal, emphasizing the need for collaboration between magicians and researchers in understanding these phenomena.

Takeaways

Courtney Block's journey into the paranormal began with her love for spooky stories.

Libraries serve as safe spaces for all, including the unhoused.

The paranormal can feel familiar and comforting to those with anxiety.

Courtney's academic journey led her to write about the history of paranormal research.

The importance of libraries in preserving and sharing knowledge is paramount.

Spooky stories from libraries often reflect the experiences of patrons and staff.

The intersection of gender and the paranormal reveals historical patterns in spiritualism.

Researching the paranormal can empower citizen scientists to explore their curiosities.

Libraries are inherently haunting spaces due to their rich histories and the energy of books.

Collaboration between magicians and researchers can bridge gaps in understanding the paranormal.

TRanscript

Jared Howell (00:03)

All right, hey everybody, we are here with my friend and ⁓ librarian slash author Courtney Block, the author of the Encyclopedia of Parapsychology and Researching the Paranormal and an upcoming banger Inside the World's Haunted Libraries, which I'm actually really excited about. was watching your talk. You live streamed your talk at Jeffersonville Public Library here in southern Indiana and.

Courtney Block (00:29)

Yes.

Jared Howell (00:31)

I kind of grew up in that building with my grandma. We would go there all the time. So it was cool to see you give a talk there and also tell a spooky story about it. So I'm really hyped.

Courtney Block (00:43)

I am hyped too. I'm hyped to be here. I'm hyped for this this journey that you're starting here with with doing this and Yeah, that's immediately my brain is like already going a million places just based on what you said about the memories that you have of libraries and like that particular building and I'm excited to see what we get into

Jared Howell (01:04)

Yeah, yeah, so I'm gonna back way up before we get into haunted libraries. We'll probably kind of end on that note, but how I so I know you're a librarian When did the paranormal enter your world? Is that like early on like we haven't really talked about your your paranormal origin story yet So I'm curious to see like how you got into Into this field and how Courtney becomes an author and all that fun stuff

So can you give us a brief overview of how you got into this?

Courtney Block (01:37)

Yes, I can. ⁓ The Paranormal has always been a fixture in my life. Probably it's a similar origin story for so many of us. ⁓ I've always read spooky books. ⁓ One of the earliest books that I have like this memory of reading was a book about the haunted United Kingdom. And it talked about like the hauntings at the Tower of London and the legend of the Loch Ness Monster.

And I just couldn't consume enough spooky stories. And of course, scary stories to tell in the dark was a favorite of mine, goosebumps. And I think a lot of it was also really informed by the openness of discussions of the paranormal in my family, especially with like my mom and my grandma, actually both grandmas. And yeah, I haven't...

Unlike some others though, it wasn't set off because of any particular incident or experience that I had. It was just always being that kid who liked to read the weirdest, spookiest stuff she could find.

I stopped being able to hear you.

Jared Howell (02:57)

How about now? I muted myself on accident. So a classic Zoom call. So as I've been on this journey, I have been unlocking like new memories and then like seeing things where I'm like, where did I first see this? And my introduction to the paranormal as I told it, I recorded like a short intro episode. That's just me talking to kind of set the stage for this.

Courtney Block (02:58)

Yeah, I can hear you.

Jared Howell (03:25)

I mentioned my mom had recorded a David Copperfield special called Unknown Forces, which was his like spooky, he does a spirit cabinet routine, which is what the Victorian spiritualists, like the stage mediums would do. And that's like one of my intros. But the other thing that I forgot about was, and I spent like all day Googling this yesterday, so I found it, but it was ⁓ my elementary school library had,

time life mysteries of the unknown, like the whole set. And I would read the alien encounters one all the time. And so I had like a vivid image of like that page with the illustration of the men in black and all that stuff. I do, it was kind of fun to like see how much books play a role in people getting into this stuff. And yeah, even to a point like,

I felt like, I remember thinking I was weird as a kid, because when the Men in Black movie came out, I was like, but they're like bad guys. I didn't like, it was just weird to me. So.

Courtney Block (04:26)

Yeah.

Yeah, that's cool.

You were like, Hey, wait a minute. This is this. These are not the men in black that I remember from the time life stories. yeah, I have that same experience with, especially scary stories to tell in the dark, just the iconic art that is in those and just being not ever really being scared by any of it. Just being like, this is amazing. I want more.

just all the spooky stories that I could get.

Jared Howell (05:04)

That's awesome. do you ever since I feel like kids my age that were reading that when I when I first discovered scary stories to tell in the dark, we're kind of scared of it. So have you been are you pretty like are you pretty brave as a person? Do get scared on investigations or like doing any of the stuff you do with Boo 812 or any of the overnight like kind of like paranormal convention stuff you do or anything like that?

Courtney Block (05:35)

This is such a fascinating question and my mind is going a million places with it. think that, ⁓ I think in some ways in my life, there's a lot of things that I'm afraid of, but ⁓ the paranormal isn't one of them. And so in that context, in ⁓ the investigations that we go on and the places that we go to, ⁓

No, I don't usually feel ⁓ scared. There's always a little subtext of maybe like a little bit of trepidation that's kind of rooted in like being scared. But that I think is just normal because you're in this, you know, sort of ⁓ environment where these strange things have happened. And so like there's there's always like a little bit, but it's more I think it's more thrilling. And maybe even thrilling isn't the right word.

I talk a lot about, ⁓ I've been actually musing about this question, kind of a question related to the one that you just asked for a while, about why the paranormal feels so familiar to me and why it feels so nostalgic and why it actually often feels quite cozy and comforting ⁓ versus, you know, other...

Completely non frightening scenarios in life. Like I don't know going to the grocery ⁓ Yeah, I think it's ⁓ I Mean we can you know, maybe work our way into this ⁓ but I think it's because ⁓

Jared Howell (07:08)

Yeah.

Courtney Block (07:22)

Yeah, I think maybe it's just because of always having an interest in the paranormal and so it's always felt like a familiar kind of topic but more so I think going back to how I first started answering this where I was like, yeah sure I'm scared of a lot of things. I have pretty bad anxiety and I think that the paranormal

in a way for me feels really familiar because my anxiety makes me feel not really entirely there a lot and what is what is a ghost or what is a ghostly thing other than something that's not really here.

And so it feels so intimately familiar to me. And it's actually something that I remind myself when I'm having like a really intense anxiety day or, you know, the anxiety brain sort of goes on its little journeys and spirals that it goes on. And I tell myself often like to calm myself down. I'm just like, you know what? It's okay because the ghosts are there when you're not here. And, ⁓

I don't know if any of that made sense.

Jared Howell (08:34)

No, it definitely, I think it makes some sense. I it's interesting. Actually, I had another thought, sorry. Do you have any kind of religious background? I'm gonna start asking this question to people that aren't afraid of the paranormal versus are, because I have a strong religious background and it took me probably until like this year or last year before I wasn't afraid of the paranormal anymore.

Courtney Block (08:48)

Yeah. Yeah.

I love this question. It's also interesting because it's something I've been thinking about recently as well. And I had no idea what you were going to ask me, but yeah, I was raised Catholic. you know, so it's always been, I don't necessarily practice it anymore.

But even saying that isn't quite authentic because when I travel I still throw in ⁓ like a saint's, you know, like a card like in my in

know, luggage. And I carry like, I think it's Saint Dymphna, the patron saint of anxiety. Like I keep her in like my little makeup and jewelry pouch when I travel. And when I lose things, I'm just like, hey, Saint Anthony, like I gotta find this thing, you know? And I have a lot of, yeah, I think I...

I think that, so I was raised Catholic, yes. And ⁓ I think it does still inform a little bit of certainly like my spiritual worldview, but also ⁓ yeah, like my supernatural worldview as well a little bit.

Jared Howell (10:28)

That's interesting. I actually, think Catholics are probably a little bit more open. feel like there's a lot, cause I grew up Southern Baptist. There's a lot of, not to like make this like all of a sudden super religious, but there's a lot of ⁓ what I would call magic and Catholicism. Like, ⁓ and you can kind of trace that history of them interloping these practices. And that's where.

Courtney Block (10:48)

Yeah.

Jared Howell (10:56)

the saints kind of enter because we couldn't stop the pagans, the heathens from doing this thing. So, but that's really just kind of St. Michael's. So why don't they? Yeah. So it's, there's a lot of overlap and they're also way less likely to be like, that's demons, right? Like they're like, that's not demons. Get that girl to, to the mental health ward. I think that's, there's just so much of that. It's so weird to me that the Southern like Baptist and like other sects of Christianity are more scared of that stuff.

So it makes sense. I also, it's interesting because on my journey, like the last time I was really scared, I didn't know who to talk to about it anymore. And I posted in the Strange Familiars Discord and Tim from Strange Familiars and Brother Richard, if you listen to that podcast, both chimed in and encouraged me to pray to St. Michael and it worked. ⁓

Courtney Block (11:26)

Yeah.

Jared Howell (11:52)

So I'm not, I was never Catholic, but that's become part of my routine. Like in anytime I get a little overwhelmed or anything. So it's kind of interesting how.

fluid we can be, guess is what I'm trying to say.

Courtney Block (12:07)

Yes,

I love that. Thanks for sharing that about yourself. I ⁓ think it's all a very fluid thing. I kind of take what resonates and leave the rest. And don't get me wrong, man, there's certain things that, why I don't necessarily call myself Catholic anymore. There's certain things that I really don't get down with. ⁓ But. ⁓

you know, but that the ritualistic aspect of, yeah, this notion of at its very core, even if you wanna take the religious connotation out of it, just at its core, this idea that there are like larger forces in this world that...

you know, can influence the world around us and this idea of, yeah, the magic that is inherent in ritual, I think it absolutely informs, like that Catholic upbringing ⁓ really informs the way that I might engage in spiritual practices nowadays or the way that I might still pray today. ⁓

you know, can often look a little ritualistic and I still find a lot of comfort. There was actually a quote that one of my favorite authors, Ralph Waldo Emerson said, something to the effect of I like the silent church ⁓ before the service better than any preaching. And there's still a lot of comfort that I feel from just like sitting.

in a church, ⁓ not during any service or anything, just like sitting in there. I think it's a very nostalgic feeling. I think it's also connected to my practice of, practice is maybe too formal of a word to talk about anything that I currently do, but ⁓ I feel very strongly connected with my ancestors. think if anything, I engage in like ancestor magic. That's what a lot of my...

kind of prayer and practice is rooted in. And so I think it's also when I'm in that space, it's also because my family was all Catholic too. So it feels a little magical.

Jared Howell (14:37)

Yeah, that's interesting. All that stuff is new to me, so I'm fascinated by it, because I haven't never done ancestor veneration, and my path is very non-linear, Southern Baptist, worship leader, youth minister kind of guy, to atheist, to agnostic, to playing with everything. So I didn't really discover that until I got into... It is hard for me to talk about because I'm a...

bald white guy, but I got into Norse paganism for a second and not racist. I just want to clarify that to anyone listening, ⁓ which is what a racist would say, but you'll just have to trust me. and I reading about how they kind of did that as well, like historically. So I started to do it because of that. And then through other means, Catholicism, I realized they kind of do that as well. So, and it's been, it's been crazy. Like,

Courtney Block (15:32)

Absolutely.

Jared Howell (15:35)

⁓ how comforting it is.

Courtney Block (15:37)

Yes,

I love that. I think you put it better when I said I take what resonates and leave the rest. ⁓ And I also really love, I think, something from Catholicism that I...

that I enjoy with the saints and everything is the veneration of, you know, women in a way through, you know, sainthood and ⁓ through, you know, the iconography of Mary. I feel ⁓ I often feel much more connected, you know, to the female figures ⁓ in certainly in that faith system than any others. ⁓

But yeah, I think also too that, like I'm glad that I was raised religious. Even though I wouldn't necessarily call myself a practicing anything really, because it made me open to ⁓ just the topic and phenomenon of religion in general. ⁓ And it's made me curious about... ⁓

you know, the world and faith systems and how it's also that curiosity has enabled me to see the way the similarities and the ways that some of them do intersect. ⁓ And I don't know. And also to Catholicism is just real. It's real spooky, right? With like it's, you know, concepts of angels and ⁓ miracles. And I don't know. I remember my grandma, one of my grandmas had this book of ⁓

people's personal experiences with angels and I remember reading it as a little kid and I was like, my god, this is so spooky. I love it.

Jared Howell (17:35)

That's interesting. So actually I'm going to put a pin in this because I want to come back to women in a second in general. But we got way off topic, which is one of my favorite things about talking to you is I think like the first time we actually hung out, I came to a Boo 812 like haunted tour last year and we immediately like went off in the deep end talking about libraries and then you had to pick, oh, hang on. It's my turn to talk in the tour. Like we were off. So I love

just going off on tangents. So you're into spooky stuff, you're into all this. When does the academic stuff come in for you?

Courtney Block (18:14)

gosh, yes. So I, it's kind of funny because I never pictured myself working in academia. I, from very early on, like my very first official job was just a few weeks before I turned 15, I got a job as a page at the local public library and I really just fell in love with public libraries and the ways that they

create community and support community. And I was like, you can like make a career out of this, you know? And ⁓ I only ever really just wanted to be a librarian. It didn't really matter to me like what form that took necessarily. ⁓ So ⁓ I was at a public library after grad school and just so happened that...

It wasn't an organization that I necessarily saw myself long-term at. And so I had just been keeping my eyes open for, you know, job postings. And I saw one at Indiana University Southeast for a librarian. And I was like, you know what? I never contemplated going into academia, but I know that I'm not happy where I'm at currently.

⁓ And I have this like feeling that the next step is ready for me to take and so that's how it happened honestly It's not a grand story. It's just how it happened

Jared Howell (19:41)

That's awesome though. So I like just kind of go with the flow, like do what you want. So when do you get like the urge to write an encyclopedia? Like how does that happen? Because we

Courtney Block (19:53)

Yeah. I realized when I said that I was like, okay, but that still doesn't really like answer that question. Or yeah, how do you go from that to... So ⁓ what I really liked about IU Southeast is that it's a small...

relatively small campus and so I think like my academic experiences may be a little different from others who were like at gigantic you know research institutions but the writing my life as a writer began in December like November 2018 November December 2018 I saw a

an email come through a listserv that I had subscribed to that was all about ⁓ scholarship and publishing opportunities for libraries because ⁓ librarians at IU are expected, know, they're faculty members, they're expected to publish and do all of that. And so I was, you know, subscribing and paying attention to opportunities to do that, which was something I was really terrified of because it was new to me. And ⁓

I saw an email come through in which the publisher of my first two books, Roman and Littlefield, they were accepting ideas for their next round of research series. And that time period was... That end of 2018 was kind of rough for me. There was a lot of burnout.

professionally and personally. I had already been in academia for about three years, just over three years at that time. And I just remember seeing this email and thinking to myself, I had this idea to talk about the history of paranormal research. And I just thought to myself that, you know,

I should reply and do that because how amazing would it be to actually be able to write about that and have it be considered work related as part of the scholarship that we're expected to do and engage in. And I sent the email.

Really kind of flippantly just thinking that someone on the other end would just think like that's pretty funny You know, like what a weirdo whatever But then they emailed back and they were like tell us more about this idea. Like what do you mean? Like they were intrigued enough to say tell us more and that

flippant email that I sent eventually ⁓ morphed into a contract for the first book, Researching the Paranormal. And then that book and the relationship I built with my publisher morphed into an opportunity, an invitation to write a second book, The Encyclopedia of Parapsychology, ⁓ which has then morphed into an invitation to write this third book.

Jared Howell (23:08)

That's awesome. And I love that because I don't remember if I did it when you were at the mediums, but I think I probably did during the theater show you saw. But I like to end all my sets kind of gassing the audience up to just go do the thing. Like everybody here has a big aspiration and you're not gonna get it unless you just try. So I love.

⁓ that's like my, my method is to flippantly do things and then immediately be like, ⁓ shit, how am going to find enough people to interview on a podcast to keep this going for a long time, which is what's happening now, but here we are. So I'm just going, I think that's, that's just how we get started. So I love, I love that too. ⁓ which is also part of the naming convention for this. I feel like there's a lot of liminality there to just be like, we'll figure it out. Let's.

Courtney Block (23:49)

Yeah.

Jared Howell (24:05)

Just get stuck.

Courtney Block (24:06)

Yeah, man, I love how you put that and absolutely I feel the same way about ⁓ when people ask me this question, like how did your writing journey begin? ⁓ I feel similar to the way that you described, you know, ending your shows and because it's an opportunity for me to remind people, hey, just shoot your shot. Like I didn't think that anything would come of that. I was just...

not having a great season and was like hey I love ghosts and I know how to research things and what if I combined them and you know I just sent it out there and then yeah I had that moment where I was like now I've got to write a book.

Jared Howell (24:52)

Yeah, that's the fun, the fear moment is what I call it, where you're like, you've started and then you have the realization of, ⁓ this is gonna be, I love this, but this is also a lot of work.

Courtney Block (25:05)

Yes, my god, yes, I absolutely

feel that. I get in the habit of, for each of my books, I have made it a habit to take pictures of my writing setups, like my various desks, whether I write, sometimes I write here in this space, in my office, ⁓ at my house, sometimes I write sitting out at my couch, sometimes I'm at, you know, the university writing, and I've made it a habit to take a picture of

my various writing spaces because even though sometimes I get really, ⁓ maybe I'll get irritated because it's real cluttered and messy and chaotic and or I'll get, you know, kind of overwhelmed because of the intense time and energy and work that goes into creating the thing. But then every single time when the thing is done, there's always a little bit of sadness and a little bit of nostalgia for like, I'm

I missed it. I missed being in the thick of creating that thing.

Jared Howell (26:13)

Yeah, absolutely. That's a thing that's hard to explain to people. There's this, I don't talk about this often, but there's this doc, it's not a documentary, it's a magic show. I think it's on Disney plus called in and of itself with this magician, Derek Delgadio. And the whole show is kind of about, it's about his life, but there's a big thread of like people define you by what you do. And

⁓ He has this analogy where it's like a Russian roulette analogy where he's a guy that is called the Ruletista and he goes to a bar every night and he plays Russian roulette and everybody gather around to see if he's gonna off himself. at the end he wraps it up being like, I'm the Ruletista. I get on stage every night and I can't function without this, but it's killing me.

It resonated with me as a performer for so hard, but my girlfriend was like, why is he bitching? He gets to be on stage every night. And so like the disconnect, like it's such a hard thing to talk about, but like I remember quitting music and being like, fuck those guys. I don't want to do it anymore. I'm over it. I hate everything. And then two years in, I was like, I was like a shell of.

Myself like so depressed that i'm not out there doing the thing anymore that I hated when I was doing it that it took everything I had in me. So It's it's an interesting thing that like post nostalgic feelings. Sorry I just took your thought and then put like a big negative energy around it, but ⁓

Courtney Block (27:53)

You didn't

at all. You didn't at all. I really appreciate you like, yeah, sharing that. And I think it also, yeah, that's, it's just part of it. It's part of that process. when you, yeah, when you said that thing about like, you know, I love this, but it's killing me. I mean, yeah, there's, there's how that, you know,

How do I want to put it? There's, I think that's a great way of talking about the inherent payment that your creative product demands of you for it to sort of be born into this world. yeah, like it's gonna take something from you and you just have to, you just have to pay it.

Jared Howell (28:49)

Yeah, which I'm just going to keep saying everything I say, because I feel like it kind of ties back into the name, because that itself is like a give and take. And you kind of always feel stuck in between. I can do this thing. It's going to be a lot of work or I cannot, but it's going to be miserable. All right. So let's get into some spooky stuff, because this is supposed to be a paranormal adjacent podcast. So ⁓ you brought up your books. So I want to dive in. I picked up researching the paranormal and I've been

I ordered it and it's been taking a minute to get here. I realized last night I was like, I'm buy the PDF too. And so I've been reading through that. And one of the things that I wanted to talk about that I thought you might find is a fascinating topic. So you mentioned in either the preface or the first chapter, you talk about, I'm gonna say this wrong probably, but is it Pythia, the Oracle at Delphi?

Courtney Block (29:27)

man.

Jared Howell (29:47)

Yeah, and how ancient Greek society used women as oracles. And then later in the book, you talk about spiritualism being very woman-centric, which it was. And then it got me thinking about all the stuff I studied in Norse, old Norse society. And there was a practice called Sather that was ⁓ like the women oracles, but it was specific to being a woman. So, ⁓

Odin used it and was always kind of jided for it because it was a woman's thing to be an oracle, to be a seer. And it's interesting for me in this space exploring being a reader as a man, because I mean, there's way more women readers than there are men. And it got me thinking last night about how

And I talked to Katie yesterday too, I interviewed Katie Gleesing ⁓ and we kind of touched on this, but it's interesting because I think empathy plays a strong role in psychic ability and ESP. And I've always been very empathetic and very... ⁓

maybe middle of the road, but I've always felt very, don't like, it's a weird society now, so I don't know how to say this politically correct, or if I'm even being politically incorrect, but feelings in my day growing up were feminine, to have feelings, to be deep in your feelings. So I always felt that way. And for that, I always felt more comfortable hanging out with girls, like a lot of my close friends in high school were girls.

and a lot of the people that I really enjoyed talking to were girls. So, and that's still kind of the case now. I feel like I make better friends with women. So it's just an interesting thought. It's me identifying that as like ⁓ a through line. Do you have any thoughts on that of why?

that's the case.

Courtney Block (32:04)

my God, yes. And my mind is just going a million miles a minute. Like when I chat with you, I feel like it always does. And that's like a good thing. ⁓ And first of all, I think it's awesome that women have always been this like safe space. And I feel like that experience is one that many of us, even women, we like, yeah, we get what you're saying. ⁓

Yeah, I think that there... I think that... ⁓ There's so many different things that I'm thinking, but I agree with you. I think that there is an aspect of the ⁓ emotional, ⁓ sort of in tune with your feelings, empathetic side of things does absolutely have a connection to...

the supernatural and the paranormal and the psychical. absolutely think that it's totally connected and you know, historically that's always been like you were saying. ⁓ You know, a lot of those things have been very, you know, heavily.

Societally discourage, know in those sort of toxically masculine ways about like, you know, like Like don't be in your feelings. That's not very man. Like whatever all those, know awful parts of ⁓ So I think that in a way it's always been ⁓ Easier for women to occupy that role to occupy that that spiritual psychical role ⁓ because that those traits were never

necessarily unsafe for us to engage in. ⁓ And I think that they are connected. ⁓ And I think there was something else that I was thinking, yes, especially when you get into the spiritualism era, think that something fascinating that I think about is how the seance room offered this sort of

performative opportunity for women to break out of these traditional patriarchal societal expectations of women and how you're supposed to behave as a woman and what is and isn't appropriate and proper for a woman to do. And yeah, so it's also got me thinking about how I think it's...

There are many ways to be in between and to be liminal, but I also think that perhaps part of that is also because women have often occupied this.

this liminal space of like, I'm just thinking of that like iconic monologue ⁓ in, you know, the Barbie movie where it's like, you know, you have to be like, be sensitive, but don't be too sensitive. And like, you know, be, be assertive, but don't be too assertive. And it's just like, what, what is this space that we're in?

Jared Howell (35:14)

Yeah, I mean ⁓ old society was just so bullshit in a lot of ways to you like one of the things Researched in spiritualism that blew my mind was that to be an actress you were considered like a public woman which was just a semi nice way of saying prostitute or like sex work like So I do know I mean

Definitely. It's even crazy. I think the year spiritualism is discovered with like the Fox sisters is the same year the first women's rights convention in Seneca Falls. So yeah, there's all sorts of stuff like that in there where it's empowerment. So I just found it fascinating that it seems to be that way. And even if you look at some of the old like ⁓ he's got like two D names.

⁓ Is it Douglas Hume? Daniel? Yeah, yeah, so that guy reading accounts of him his story has a very loving kind of feminine undertone to it like him as a person seemed to he was very loving he didn't charge for his seances he would just ask that you put him up for the night and

Courtney Block (36:10)

homeless

Jared Howell (36:35)

He would accept gifts, which is also kind of a con man thing to do. But I do think that in a lot of aspects of him, I remember thinking that too. So it's just kind of interesting. And he's also one of the few that never really got the female mediums that never really just got murdered by skeptics. Like he was never debunked, defrauded. He kind of died a mystery. And so I don't know. It's just fascinating to me that I think

that plays a big key and it's also played a big part for me in doing the seance shows and doing magic because I'm always there are like two big things that I try and say every night I go out which is do the thing you want to do and just fucking love each other which sounds corny but

So, but it's interesting. on the subject of researching the paranormal, because I guess I'm not all the way through the book, clearly, but the purpose of that book is to empower citizen science, which is a term that I hadn't heard until I read that. And when I did, I was like, yeah, that makes so much sense. So what are.

Courtney Block (37:25)

Yeah.

Jared Howell (37:50)

some primary sources that you think are underutilized in paranormal research, both for professionals and for citizens that are just practicing it on the hunt.

Courtney Block (38:03)

Yes, my God, okay. I mean, I've loved every question that you ask, but I'm also just like, give me an opportunity to talk about research and resources and because one of my biggest things and I'm glad that the goal of that book came through to you because yeah, part of writing that was to show.

not just the person in the academy, like the student, you know, that, this topic is valid and your curiosity is valid, but to also show anybody, the general public, that, this information exists and you have ⁓ the ability to access it and you have a right to it too. ⁓

So yes, let me tell you about some of my favorite resources. ⁓ I love the Chronicling America Historic American Newspapers database that is provided freely and openly through the Library of Congress. ⁓ I tell everyone about that. ⁓ It's such an amazing ⁓ newspaper database. It indexes ⁓ newspapers in the United States from like,

Gosh, the late 1600s, early 1700s, all through up until about 1964. And it is such a gold mine of research, especially because in that era, like, I mean, my God, they printed everybody's business, all the details. I mean, we would consider most of it doxing nowadays.

but for the researchers, right? Like you and me. ⁓ Or if you're doing research on, you know, a location because, you know, there's some weird things happening or whatever, you can get so much information about, you know, the people who live there. ⁓ I think also that Sanborn Fire Insurance Maps are really awesome resources ⁓ because you can find them for most cities. They were drawn ⁓

to help with fire insurance purposes in the event that something happened. But on them, you can see details about how cities used to be laid out and buildings, like what used to be in this spot that isn't there now. ⁓ And you can also, it was pretty common for address numbers to change over the years. ⁓ And so what used to be, you know, ⁓

what might currently be a house or a business at 1813 whatever road, 100 years ago was 1113. And so if you can use that information to then search in the newspaper databases because you've got the right, the historical address if you will.

And then the Internet Archive. The Internet Archive is another freely accessible, all of these are freely accessible resources, but the Internet Archive is such an amazing tool to get entire, I mean gosh, just entire works, you know, openly, freely and openly. I went to Half Price Books like a couple weeks ago, and there was this really awesome book about like dowsing and the history of dowsing, but it was, you know, kind of expensive, and I was like...

It was kind of dated like from the 70s maybe and I was like, wonder if I can find this on the internet archive and sure enough it is. The book that was written about the Philip experiment, Conjuring Up Philip is entirely freely accessible on internet archive. ⁓ Yeah, so those are the three that come to mind, but I mean, I could keep talking, but I'll pause here.

Jared Howell (41:52)

No, that's awesome. The Internet Archive is one of my favorite things ever. ⁓ Just for random stuff, ⁓ I can tie this into the paranormal too, but earlier I was talking about looking back at how I got into spooky stuff, and one of the things that hit me early on was that I remember seeing a write-up on the Phoenix Lights in Disney Adventure Magazine.

and I remember that like Timon and Pumbaa were on the front cover in like trench coats and like detective hats and a flashlight. It was like their Halloween issue. And I found that whole like issue on just the some some saint put all of like early 90s Disney Adventure magazine on. So it was kind of fun to go back and see like that same exact photo of the Phoenix lights that got me into it and also introduced me to the X-Files and.

Courtney Block (42:46)

Yes.

Jared Howell (42:46)

all these fun things. So there's a ton of nostalgia on there too.

Courtney Block (42:52)

my God, yes, thank you for bringing that up because sometimes I get like, sometimes I have to remind myself that I'm like, I gotta remind people that all of these databases include much more than just the paranormal. I'm always only ever really talking about them in the scope of the paranormal. But so yes, thank you for mentioning that. ⁓

But yeah, I mean, even for genealogy purposes, my God, like Chronicling America, the databases, the newspaper database can be so valuable. ⁓ Just general historical events, ⁓ know, photos of people and events. I mean, it's just, yeah, sheer nostalgia.

Jared Howell (43:38)

Yeah, that's awesome. how do libraries fit into paranormal research since you're a librarian and there was a clear lack of mentioning libraries there?

Courtney Block (43:49)

Yeah, so I think that I mentioned the first three because they're accessible even from just, you know, you can sit on your couch in your home. You know, you don't even have to make your way physically to a library. But thank you for this opportunity to, yeah, remind people about their libraries in a physical sense. So.

Libraries tie in in so many different ways. I mean first of all if you ⁓ Find a book maybe you listen, you know to this podcast and you hear us talking about various books or whatever and you want to Track down a copy of it go get it from your library ⁓ you know save your money because geez Louise, especially nowadays ⁓ But just in general, you know get

get it from your local library. ⁓ Because not only are you supporting your libraries, are, continue, have always needed support, but especially again, the need for support continues to grow and grow for libraries. So not only are you supporting your library, your...

saving yourself money. You're also enabling perhaps the next person behind you if a library decides to add a certain book to their collection, the next person behind you is going to find it. Librarians can also help you do research if you're just like, hey, I'm looking into ⁓ the history of my house or the history of this, you one building or this person that I heard about. ⁓

I mean, we are literal, degreed information literacy folks, and so we can help you with that. And I used to, I don't get that question so much necessarily at the university library, but at the public library, people would come in and be like, man, some weird stuff is happening in my house. Can you help me dig into the history of it?

⁓ So we can do that and ⁓ there's just so many ways that libraries can help. I'm also too, like a lot of libraries have local history rooms and archives collections that you can also ⁓ dig into if you're wanting to do ⁓ historical research in that way as well.

Jared Howell (46:11)

Yeah, that's awesome. So I admittedly, I didn't know all that about librarians and how research oriented you all were. I had had one bad, just one, it took one bad experience at a library and it wasn't even that bad. It was just a stupid experience. Probably like 2008, I went to the Jeffersonville Public Library to borrow a copy of World War Z, the zombie book by Max Brooks. And I found it in the nonfiction section.

which is where it was put. And so when I returned it, I brought it back to them and I said, hey, just so you know, this was in the non-fiction section and it's like definitely fiction. And the lady looked at me was like, are you sure? And I was like, unless you remember the zombie wars, I'm pretty sure that that's a fiction book. And that's like what cemented.

little librarians as like just somebody's grandma for me. But I didn't know how much like academic work you guys do until I kind of met you and it got me thinking about how underutilized it is and also how kind of like creepy libraries are. So I definitely want to talk about your new book that's going to come out. But Jeffersonville Public Library for me.

I mentioned it earlier, but that was like every weekend I'd stay with one of my grandparents. so when I'd stay with my grandma that lived in Indiana, we would go to the Jeff library. We would rent movies in the basement. And then at the time, the basement also had like kind of an art gallery. So all the rooms had different like framed paintings in them, which my grandma liked because she was a painter. And sometimes they would be like book and movie sales in those rooms and stuff like that. So, but I do remember just being

creeped out by the long hallway on the other side of the video store in the basement of that library. And I've always thought that they were kind of creepy. And they're also liminal in nature. think there's a lot of... Even if you just take it at this one fact that, especially the Jeff library is very much open to just letting homeless people come hang out for the day. Which might turn people off, and if that turns you off, well then fuck you.

I'll say it meanly because I mean, I don't mind. like, I, I remember going to the Indiana research room just last year and there was a guy sitting in there just getting out of the cold and I could tell he felt uncomfortable that I was doing research in there. And I was like, he started to get his things and I was like, dude, you're fine. You just hang out, do your thing. So I, there's literal transient people there. And then they're also just kind of.

In between places. I mean, you've got so much foot traffic. You've got so much history. They're also big built, usually big storied buildings, I think. So is that kind of what played into inspiring you to write this work? Or like, how did you decide you wanted to talk about haunted libraries? Is it just like a kind of a classic, let me mash up the two things I love, like, or?

Courtney Block (49:26)

Yeah, thanks for asking this. I am just taking in everything that you shared. Yeah, first of all, no, no, that wasn't, that was meant positively. Like I love everything that you just shared. And I think that ⁓ it's, I love that you have these memories other than that one weird like World War Z memory. mean, good God. ⁓

But I love that you have these memories of the library and especially connected with your grandma. And I'm glad that you brought up, you know, the fact that, yeah, this is the role that one of the roles that libraries play. There's not many hills that I will die on, but one of them is.

And there's not many things that I wholeheartedly, 100 % believe in. And my answer to both of those are like libraries and the value and the importance of them. like, you know, one of those hills that I'll die on is that they are, there's no other place like them in society. And that's so needed and it's so necessary. And the library is often the place where people go when they don't know where to go. ⁓

you know, hence, you know, you know, unhoused populations, absolutely. ⁓ Being, you know, just one of the many library patrons that, you know, we serve and ⁓ yeah, I can, in my mind, when you were sharing that story, I'm absolutely going through, you know, those, ⁓ you know, some unhoused folks that I, you know, was.

familiar with or got to know in my history as a librarian. yeah, I'm just kind of musing on that. But yes, so the idea for this book is ⁓ it started brewing when I was writing my second book and I really, I describe this.

book as my love letter to libraries and the ghosts within them. ⁓ Because what I really wanted to do was capture the exceptional human experiences of librarians and library workers, ⁓ you know, across the world ⁓ in terms of the strange experiences that they've had in their libraries.

And so it was this desire to highlight library workers' voices, primarily, to highlight these and to capture, like in perpetuity, and I hope that doesn't sound egotistical, but like to capture ⁓ their lived experiences that are not recorded anywhere else and to have this broader discussion about ⁓

What I have been thinking about for years now is a bigger discussion about the inherent nature and qualities of a library that I think make them inherently naturally haunting spaces.

for so many, so many reasons. One of them being ⁓ what you just talked about, the fact that they are places for everybody. They are places where people go when they don't know where else to go. They are places where, at least in the Western world, you cannot go anywhere and sit there all day without buying your right to be there, you know what I mean? Which is messed up, but libraries, don't have to buy.

you know, your ability to just sit there all day if you need to or want to and nobody's going to bother you and ⁓ there's no place. Libraries are liminal entities because they're, they're such a core part of our society. Like everybody generically has good feelings about libraries, but there is nothing, nothing else like the library.

So, bye-bye.

Jared Howell (53:45)

So, I love that. I love all of that. What's your... Cause we're getting a little short on time, but what's your favorite... Can you share like one of your favorite stories from the book? Like what's your favorite, like one of your favorite spooky stories? You don't have to give like that A stories away, like maybe like a B tier story that's really good from your book to encourage everybody to go check it out when it finally releases.

Courtney Block (54:16)

That's a great question because it's so funny when you say that you don't have to release one of your A stories because all of them have such a special place in my heart but I will tell you a really funny one. This was from a library in Australia and

I love that there were actually so many Australian librarians who had like tales to report to me. I was like, this is great. ⁓ And there was one instance where it was closing time and there was an older lady that...

⁓ staff had noticed, multiple staff noticed had gone into the women's bathroom and there's no exit from inside, you know, the women's bathroom. And ⁓ so they just, you know, made note of it in the way that you, you know, make note of who's in the building and where when it's closing time and you're reminding people and just, you know, keeping track and whatnot. And so it's, you know, getting closer and closer to closing time and the lady hasn't emerged yet and they, you know, they're knocking on the door.

and there's no response and so finally they decide you know we're you know gonna gonna go ahead and like you know get the key and open this up and check because they kind of started getting worried maybe she had a medical emergency or something ⁓ and so they open the door they open the door and the bathroom is empty and the part that really got me is that

The librarian who reported this to me said that the only exit, the only way to get out of that bathroom is through the drain. And so we've just taken to calling her the drain lady.

Jared Howell (55:58)

Ha

Courtney Block (56:00)

to that experience, that ghostly moment. ⁓ I love that one. ⁓ There's other examples of things like that, that libraries around the world reported, which is that very similar situation where it's closing time. And it's in all the stories, I think it's usually more than one person has noticed.

patron is you know they're somewhere in the library and they're like they haven't come back yet usually it's a patron who is a regular the drain lady I don't think was a regular I think she was just a random I don't think they'd seen her before ⁓ but in a lot of the stories it's ⁓ a regular patron that they like they know their name they've seen them before they see them regularly and they'll be like they haven't come out of the study room yet

And multiple people notice that they were still in there and then they'll go back in and there's nobody there. And that kind of makes me think of like, you know, the way that we can tend to haunt the world around us, you know, like maybe. And it reminds me too of like the ways, the meaningful. The ways that libraries become meaningful spaces to people as well, and that we often have these positive memories. ⁓

So I don't know, like maybe, I don't know, like maybe those patrons that people saw at closing time were just, you know, thinking like, oh, I've got to get to the library again tomorrow to continue, you know, reading or studying or working on this project or whatever. Maybe they...

just happened to be thinking how they had such a good time the other day at the library or you know whatever or maybe they were reading something they checked out of the library and does that coincide with like the moment in which library workers are like closing the building but they're like hey so-and-so is still here I mean I don't know

Jared Howell (58:01)

No, it's interesting. So I worked at Half Price Books for a little while. ⁓ And that would happen to us pretty frequently. I was a nighttime book buyer. So I worked ⁓ where you go to sell your books.

I just remember my manager, Fred, always was he was a very on top of closing like he would wander and make sure he knew where everybody was so that we could get out of there on time. And there were several times where it would be like some random person we'd never seen before would come in, go to the bathroom and then we'd never see them again. And. Yeah, and I mean, it's not it's not beyond them sneaking past us, but I never thought about it until that story that I was like, because.

I could totally see myself haunting to half price books when I croak. Like I love the bookstore. Like if I'm bored or going insane in my apartment and need to get out, I will just go to every bookstore in the city. most of the time I don't even buy anything. I just wander around and I touch books and I feel books. like check out things I like. ⁓ So it's interesting. I can see that being a thing.

Courtney Block (59:11)

Yeah, and I think, man, you're reminding me of this other, one of my other theories about why I think libraries are inherently haunting spaces. And I think a lot of the same components can apply to book stores, but libraries are, let's consider the books themselves, right? I think it's a...

I think, especially if you've ever been in a library after hours or even just been on the floor by yourself or, I think you can totally feel like the energy of, you know, these books and whatever it is that you've created, whether it's, you know, a song, a painting, a book, the act of creation, I think is a magical process that leaves behind some sort of talking back, circling back to the beginning where it's like,

There's that energetic residue of the thing that it has demanded of the creator, right? And I think that you can feel that echoing and so also with libraries and I

in a way like half-price books, like by and large, a lot of those books are used. They've ⁓ gone through their reader or readers and then ended up on the shelf and library books, you know, somebody checks them out and it spends time with that person, you know, that patron who's read it. And maybe they forgot about it. Maybe it fell under the seat of their car for six months and then they randomly found it. ⁓ But they either love it, they hate it, they forget about it, but either way that book lives with them for a period of time. And then it goes back

on the shelf and the next person checks it out who then and that reader then like pours their energy to it and the cycle continues and continues and continues and I think that ⁓ I don't know I think that can sometimes account for the weird things that happen in libraries but I also wonder too about the just

I kind of wonder if like the drain lady or the people that you would notice at half price who would seemingly disappear, like could they also have been characters in some of these books, you know, that were kind of brought to life by, you know, the energetic imprint of their creator, but also all of the readers who have consumed them.

Jared Howell (1:01:29)

I love that.

There's a whole, there's like a whole thing. ⁓ I'm trying to remember the book, but somebody wrote a book about seeing fictional characters, like in real life. Like I'll try and find the title and put it in the show notes and also send it to you. ⁓ But it's a fascinating topic to like, I don't know, have that like Harvey moment where you look up and there's Bugs Bunny in real life and you're like, what the fuck's happening to me? Am I going nuts? And then it's.

Courtney Block (1:01:42)

Okay. Yeah. Yeah, please.

Jared Howell (1:01:58)

Nobody believes you and I imagine there's a lot of those that nobody tells because they're for sure gonna make you seem like a nutter. But I love that. I don't want to keep you too, too long, but I have two more kind of maybe deep questions for you that I'm going to try and ask everybody. But ⁓ you've been a paranormal researcher. You've been writing for many years now.

What do you believe?

Courtney Block (1:02:33)

this question. ⁓

Wow, that's...

This is something I have also been thinking about more and more, especially over the past couple of years. I think that, hmm, I think in terms of the paranormal, what I believe is that, like it serves as a vehicle for us to have

exceptional human experiences that make us think, just think about the world around us and our role in it, but also which often connect us to other people through those exceptional human experiences. ⁓ That's what I believe. I wholeheartedly, and this might seem kind of weird as somebody who's written

researching the paranormal and the encyclopedia of parapsychology, but I hope that we never get all of the answers. I hope that we never solve it. ⁓ I believe in the mystery of it all and the importance of that mystery and I think contemplate, just even contemplating like if I woke up tomorrow and like

the news was just like, we solved it. Like it being the paranormal or whatever, it just feels like soul sucking, like just drains all the air out of me. But yeah, that's what I believe. I don't know if that made sense. Okay.

Jared Howell (1:04:16)

No, that makes a lot of sense.

while you were saying that, I was thinking that if this show goes on for a while and I get a bunch of these answers, I'm going to make a hall of fame of answers. And that's going to be one in it. Cause I love that. And I think so many people get focused on

like what they believe in, especially like cryptid people, like cryptid heads, like, and I think they kind of lose sight of the meaning behind it all. And I think that's one thing too. I talked with Katie about, I'm not sure when these are going to air in what order, but I love Katie and the fact that she's very much like a scully type, but not outwardly. So she's...

Courtney Block (1:04:40)

Yeah.

Jared Howell (1:05:07)

She's there for the fun of it and she's not going to ruin the fun of the moment. But then she's like, no, I kind of rationalize my way out of everything. Like, and it's fun to me that.

those people exist too. I don't know where I was going with that thought. had a train, but then I started laughing thinking about it. But it's fun to see everybody's take on this answer, because for me, it's just about finding enough evidence to be comforted with the end, right? And I think that I've kind of got enough now to know there's something.

out there that's gonna come for me, but I don't know what it is. I'm just here for the journey and all of that. So, I lied. I said two questions. I have three now, because there was one very specific that I wanted to ask you, because it was in the foreword of your book, the researcher that I should have wrote her name down. There were the forward for researching the paranormal just states as clean as day that ESP is real and

One of my favorite authors, Mitch Horowitz also, I mean, he has a podcast called Ea, it's literally titled ESP is Real. And what do you believe? Because I know you've studied, we didn't even talk about this. There's so much to talk to you about, but you've like, you study the Rhein Lab, you've uncovered a love story there that's super interesting we're gonna have to talk about. There's all sorts of cool stuff, but you've been in the deep end of this academic research. And I mean like,

the deep end guys, like at the archives looking at physical papers on parapsychology and ESP research and all this stuff, what do you think? Cause I think the stats like I can see how the average person that's average at math doesn't grasp the value and the small statistics we have on just like Ryan's lab. But for me, it's pretty compelling.

Courtney Block (1:07:18)

Yeah, I believe that, like I'm convinced of the existence and the verified, the scientifically verified existence of the psychical, the weird, the paranormal, whatever you want to call it.

I'm convinced. Now, I'm convinced that it exists. ⁓ don't know, and that's about as sort of far as I can, none of us really know like what, you know, it is or how exactly it happens. But I am convinced that we have shown, the scientific community has shown that this is a reality of this world, that weird things happen.

strange, psychical things happen.

I it has been shown scientifically and I think also sociologically these experiences like eyewitness testimonies and personal experiences that can never inherently never be like clinically scientifically like stamp of approval. ⁓ That's important too. ⁓ And I just find it

I am wholly uninterested in being the person who dismisses the millennia of human experience of things like hauntings and ghost stories and whatever with just like, well, we can't prove it. And so just dismissively sweep it to the side. think I also believe that

paranormal is such an intimately like interconnected part of the human experience. ⁓ And ⁓ yeah, so I kind of lost my train of thought. yes. I, some of the, I know like some of the main arguments against ⁓ the scientific study of, let's say,

you know, parapsychological related research is that the statistical, ⁓ the statistically significant results that they've gotten are often, ⁓ not always, but often small, like they exist.

it's a statistically significant result, but maybe it's a little small. So then people sometimes will dismiss it just because of that. And it's like, well, okay, but the statistics are sound and the statistics are there and like the math is correct and the study, you know, there's nothing wrong with their methodology and you're just dismissing it because you're like, well, yeah, but it's a small result. That just always seems kind of weird to me. ⁓

But there's also this notion of the problem of replication, which is, I think, perhaps a an argument that has a little more like feet than that other sort of small statistically significant result. ⁓ Because, you know, the goal, at least with scientific study, is the ability to have it replicated, right? But there's this is a huge discussion in

throughout the history of the parapsychological study is that there's something ⁓ perhaps inherently non-conducive to the replication of these phenomena ⁓ that does kind of make it difficult to you know prove its worth I think in the academic arena but I think it has, I think it has proven its worth. ⁓

I think that there will always be this tension about the worth of the pursuit in the scientific way because that tension was there at the very beginning. Like psychology as like this nascent field of study was coming up at the same time as, you know, Psychical Science and Psychical Research. And there were people who, you know, felt that like Psychical Studies were a natural sub-component of psychology. And then there were diehards who were like,

Like, we're trying to get people to take psychology serious. Like, get out of here with your, you know, psychical stuff. Like, what are you doing? That tension was there from the beginning and it has never left. I don't think it'll ever leave, but I mean, I'm convinced that we have shown. We, I mean, I'm not a parapsychologist, but ⁓ I think that, you know, they have, I think they've shown that it exists.

Jared Howell (1:12:01)

I have two thoughts over everything you just said ⁓ and one leads into the next question, but real quick for listeners and you. I have this story I tell sometimes of seance shows I did last year where I was doing my magic thing and giving readings and this girl was asking about her grandpa in general and she didn't write this down. We hadn't talked about it, but I kept getting an image of a wooden table.

And I said, does that mean anything to you? And she said, yeah, my grandpa was a woodcrafter and he made, he handmade a table. And then I felt overwhelmed with like gratitude. And I was like, I think he's happy you're hanging onto it. But what if she sent me that thought? That was the thought I had, like talking about ESP. And I wonder how much of mediumship could be that. ⁓ And then.

The other thought I had, which leads into the question, is I feel like a lot of the people that try and recreate the steps though are skeptics and they don't want it to happen. So that argument translates to the other side too, because they're always like, well, the researchers want to believe. They want to believe and because of that, it's, of course they're going to find evidence. But the same is true if you don't want to believe. You're going to disprove everything and rationalize everything. And

I think this is also where magicians have done more damage to research than anybody because they were so vicious about it. ⁓ Especially the Amazing Randy and...

his take down on that lab ⁓ with Banachek. can't remember the name of the lab, my brain's farting, but it's... I'm trying to ask, like, I guess part of one of my goals, which seems lofty, and I'm hesitant to say it out loud, even starting this, is to bridge that gap between magicians and research, because I'm convinced that magicians know more about deception than any researcher will ever know, and...

I was talking to a parapsychologist about Ted Sirius and he actually, he had receipts for how hard Dr. Eisenbud worked to disprove Ted and that actually made me comforted and I think magicians have the wrong idea. I still think we could be helpful because there's a lot in that study where I'm like, I'd have to be there because

I know researchers saying there's no way, there's no way. And I'm like, there's way. Like we do it all the time. Like collusion is the easiest method. There are still people in, it's so easy that people in audience will still be like, well, just everybody's in on it. And I'm like, except for you, you think I went that far to get a hundred people in this theater to like, bit you. Like it's, and it seems crazy, but it's possible. There's so much we can do. ⁓

to create those situations. So I guess my question is, is that a gap that can still be bridged or is the damage done? Because there's not a lot of like, psychical research still happening. And if so, how do you think people that are versed in deception could help psychical research if we wanted to?

That's like a deep question.

Courtney Block (1:15:29)

Yeah,

no, it's a good question. I, well, I do think that there is, ⁓ that there is still a very good deal of parapsychological research being done. ⁓ I don't think, yeah, maybe, I think it has shifted certainly ⁓ from, you know, some of the early like theories and... ⁓

things that we're focused on. But I think it can. I mean, if it can't be completely bridged, I certainly think that progress can be made. Like that was how I felt like when you first asked that. Like I absolutely think it's worth it. It's a worthy endeavor. do think progress can be made.

And I think that it's, I think that it highlights the importance through like what you're doing with ⁓ connecting with that researcher. ⁓ And also the things that you're talking about. I think it's why it's important to have people.

on all sides of the sort of, you know, angle, if you will, not to use the word angle, but like I think having people who like magicians who can see certain things that another person cannot is important to like have all of those perspectives at the table.

because, and I think this is a symptom of like any, you know, any field of study. Like you get siloed and if you only engage with people in your field of study, well, you're only ever going to see the things that you.

see in your field of study that is taught, that is believed, that is, you know, experienced, you know, that... So I think that, yeah, I think it's worth it. I progress can be made. I think progress has been made in general. Like, if you consider... ⁓ the tension, like how tense, like the beginnings of, you know, the...

Yeah, I don't just the history of like, Psychical science gaining its footing and then how it's morphed into, you know, parapsychology nowadays and it's still very much a struggle, but I definitely think progress has been made. yeah.

Jared Howell (1:18:06)

Cool, thank you so much. So yeah, thanks for talking to me and coming on. I appreciate your time so much. ⁓ Where can everybody find you on the web? Where can we buy your books? And when does your next book come out?

Courtney Block (1:18:20)

Thanks, yeah. Well, thanks for having me. This has been amazing. I am like super excited for your project and the places that you're gonna go with this. People can find me. I'm most active on Instagram at liminal.librarian. You can get my books through the library. That's what I'll urge people to get my book.

My third book comes out in April of 2026. So the pre-order link is available with my publisher Bloomsbury. So you can just Google, you know, Bloomsbury Courtney Block and you can find all of my books. But you can also ask your library to purchase a copy for you. yeah, ⁓ yeah.

Jared Howell (1:19:13)

Well Courtney, thanks so much for being here. I appreciate you so much and everybody go follow Courtney on the socials and buy our books or ask your library. It helps everybody.

Courtney Block (1:19:17)

Yeah, thanks.

It does.