Episode 2 - Katie Glesing - Vampires, Academy, & Deviant Leisure
Jared Howell (00:42.584)
OK, guys. So we've got Katie Joe Gleesing with us. She is. What's your title? founder and director, I guess. Is that your title for Boo 812?
Katie Jo (01:00.956)
Found, yes, yeah, founder and director.
Jared Howell (01:05.974)
So, Katie founded Boo812, which has been working with me on some spooky Halloween entertainment over the, I guess, kind of we've been talking and working on this thing for the last year. So, and I met you guys, when was BooFest? I met you guys like two years ago, I guess.
Katie Jo (01:24.112)
That would have been last July and we started planning for that in like December of the previous year. So 2023?
Jared Howell (01:34.671)
Time is a blur, it's crazy. Yeah, so I mean, just a couple of years we've been working together on different things. So Boo 812 is something, you guys check a lot of boxes. If you had to put it into words, what would you say like, what's the chief definite aim of Boo 812? What do you guys, what's your main focus? And then what are some of the other things you all do? Just so everybody knows.
Katie Jo (02:02.31)
Yeah, so on the Indiana State Nonprofit application, we're a cultural nonprofit. And so that means we're dedicated to keeping the creepy culture of Kentuckyana alive, I guess. I like that alliteration a lot. So that's how I've been describing it to people. But we mostly go digging through historical records, find cool stories that we hear from citizens in the community, and then go back it up with whatever we can.
And if we can't back it up, we still tell the story and just say we can't find anything about it.
Jared Howell (02:37.526)
Okay, that's awesome. And then do you guys do, how often do you do like actual investigations anymore? Is that sort of a rarity for you all at this point? Because you guys have been in it for a long time.
Katie Jo (02:51.41)
Yeah, so when we first started, we were probably doing five or six investigations a year back in like 2013, but since we've been Boo812, we've only done two or three in the last, well, okay, I take that back because we do the paranormal investigation classes. And so we did like paranormal investigating at Witches Brew. So are we counting those kinds of events too?
Jared Howell (03:16.888)
I would definitely count witches brew. and then the classes are just, I don't know. So let's back up, explain those classes for everybody that's listening so that everybody's on page with us. You'll explain it better than me.
Katie Jo (03:36.048)
Yeah, so when we first started Boo812, a lot of it was to get out of the rigid scope of academia and bring it to the community. And so we started hosting essentially parapsychology 101 classes for just community people at different places that would host us. So we started with Raven's Roost, which is no longer around. And then we've just kind of partnered with
Oddball. don't really know affectionately woo woo businesses across the, across the area. And so if we had to, if we really had to define the paranormal 101 classes, it's where we give like brief history of parapsychology, say, hey, yes, this is legitimately being studied. It's not like just what you're seeing on TV. It is something that you can actually go home and do. You can buy these.
pieces of equipment on Amazon, on Ghost Stop. And so we let people kind of play around with our equipment, for lack of a better word, and then walk them through how to investigate safely and with friends. I think a lot of people are afraid to do it by themselves. So we provide that community of people.
so they don't have to be so scared.
Jared Howell (04:58.486)
Okay, that's awesome. So I would say those classes sort of count. Because when we did the one in the Sheridan, was it the Sheridan Midwest Boofest? What's that? Yeah, so we're in the middle of just your average like Midwest semi fancy hotel meeting room. And I don't know, I feel like it got pretty spooky for like a hotel above a Hooters like.
Katie Jo (05:10.342)
Yes.
Katie Jo (05:27.184)
Right, right.
Jared Howell (05:27.436)
I was not.
So I'd say those count. But the thing that fascinates me, and I guess I see a lot of people doing it right now, since I guess really since like Hell Year came out, people like I feel like that docu-series, I don't know what to call it, merged communities. Because I feel like before that there were the Ghost Bros and the paranormal TV junkies and then the Bigfoot people were their own thing.
and then their alien guys were a whole other thing and now everything's coming together. So I was surprised, I guess, I don't know why I would have been out of this community for so long if I could say I was ever really in it, but I was surprised when I met you all that we were off into the the weird parapsychology area. So how do you guys transition from being paranormal investigators
to getting into the deep end with parapsychology and like the academic side of things.
Katie Jo (06:37.266)
Yeah, would say, I would say Chris and Courtney and I all have pretty different journeys into how we got into parapsychology. My parents are affectionately weirdos and we would just go take pictures in cemeteries when we were going to like, we would travel to high school football games and my mom would be like, oh, a family member's buried here. Let's go snap some pictures and.
We'd get some weird stuff in those pictures. But in 2013, I took a parapsychology class in my undergrad at IU Southeast.
It completely changed how I saw the paranormal world because I had been watching, you know, ghost hunters, ghost adventures, all the ghost bros on TV, love them. That is not academic research. It could be, it totally could be, but they're not collecting their data sets. but in that parapsychology class, we had half of the class, during the summer was in a classroom where we studied all the different research that's gone in.
like ESP, haunt phenomenon, psychokinesis, and mediumship, just all the literature that's out there very superficially. And then the second half of that class was traveling the east coast of the United States, so going to Virginia, learning about cryptids, going down to New Orleans and learning about hoodoo voodoo vampire culture, all of the above. And then like Savannah, Georgia, their ghost walks, their haunt phenomenon.
there and then we ended at Myrtles Plantation which there are some ethical complications that go into investigating plantations but from there I just kind of like fell in love with the research side of it, stayed with that institute that was already formed and then hopped out and broke into Boo812 in 2024 or 2023 I guess.
Jared Howell (08:43.15)
Awesome, so that's like a lot. What's the weirdest thing you've done on your journey? Have you ever cryptid hunted? Did you hunt the frog man? What'd you do?
Katie Jo (08:57.112)
I have to... okay. This docu-series is probably... it is... the docu-series may or may not come out, but I was invited to spend five days in Cleveland, Ohio in a haunted Airbnb with like ten people who self-identify as psychic vampires. And...
It blew my mind. Like, would I say yes again? Absolutely. Were they all strangers at the time? Definitely. But that was really fun. Getting to get into the psychic vampire community was not something that was ever on my radar until they invited me to come join. And I think they invited me just because I had that academic background too.
Jared Howell (09:48.248)
So, what's a psychic vampire?
Katie Jo (09:52.865)
gosh, I, listen, I am...
I'm gonna butcher it because there are so many different lines of belief in psychic vampirism, but have you seen what we do in the shadows? Colin Robinson. Yes.
Jared Howell (10:10.446)
Of course,
Okay, so they just think they feed off of people's energy. are they like trolls or is it like that or?
Katie Jo (10:21.816)
I would say there's people who are aware that they're psychic vampires and there's people who are not aware that they're psychic vampires. And your Colin Robinsons are the ones who are generally not aware. I feel like we all have them in the office. I've been to like HR conferences where they talk about energy vampires and psychic vampires from an HR perspective. But I've also like the vampires that I spent time with really are more akin to like
Reiki, energy healing, Kigong, where they basically take the energy that is ambiently in a room or feed off of people who are nearby. And there's a whole culture of consent around it. They'll feed off people who are nearby and they'll use that transfer of energy to basically be a conduit to do some sort of transmutation of that energy in their own body and either put it back into another person.
or put it out into the world. So, kind of falls into the energy healing realm for me. The book that we worked off of and one of the celebrities that we worked with was Michelle Bellanger who wrote The Psychic Vampire Codex and really, really gives an in-depth overview into what energy vampires are, psychic vampires.
Prior to doing that, I had actually traveled to France to study vampires and went to the Musée de Van Pierre and spent some time with Jacques Sergent, who is the leading vampire expert, but he's more in the Dracula knows fraught to realm versus the psychic vampire realm. But.
He did say that at one point in time he was lecturing down in New Orleans and a group of people who self-identify as vampires did like stop him and kidnap him after one of his lectures and basically told him, hey, you need to stop talking about this. So.
Katie Jo (12:28.57)
There's a lot to the vampire community that I was completely unaware of and that doesn't tend to appear in the psych or parapsychology textbooks. So that's a lot.
Jared Howell (12:40.31)
I have so many feelings right now. No, no, it's fascinating. So this is like where I get in full blown trouble because there's so much like this. These are the conversations where like skeptic magician Jared takes over and I'm like, what the nerd like that's where I bully Jared comes out. That's what I'm saying is like, my God.
Katie Jo (12:50.93)
Yeah.
Katie Jo (13:02.256)
Yeah.
I mean, you can totally bully them. Like, I regularly am... I mean, listen. Affectionately bullying.
Jared Howell (13:10.51)
I don't wanna play, I wanna be inclusive, I think. But I don't know, I can't buy vampires. There's a limit to my believability. I don't know why, it's kinda fun. Are there any studies on that? Have you guys talked about where we draw the line at all? Because it's interesting to me to think about ghosts, great. Cryptids, maybe, sure. I'm open to the idea.
somewhat like, you know, there's like Goatman, probably not, but Bigfoot? I'm all in. Aliens? Sure. Vampires? Out. Sorry, I'm not buying it.
Katie Jo (13:50.96)
Yeah, right. Well, and I guess it kind of falls under like.
your definition of vampire too. Because there are people who like lean so heavily into it that they do drink each other's blood. Like I met folks who do drink each other's blood. And like they have a whole like health network where they like test their blood, make sure it's safe, make sure it's like clean, make sure no one's got diseases. And then they like exchange drinking blood. And so if we're going by that,
Yes, vampires exist. Do I think that there's some truth to energy healing? I think there is and I think it's the vernacular of vampire that comes with the stigma because not only did they call themselves vampire, already has like you've got Dracula, you've got Nosferatu, like you've got the big bad goth novel baddies in that realm.
But there has been some really cool research on energy healing, on Qigong, on energy manipulation. So I guess I have issue with the wording of vampire and the fact that they have constructed an entire caste system. So there was like, this makes me like, listen, Jared.
I want to separate myself from this a little bit. am telling you what is out there, not necessarily what I believe. But they call themselves warriors, concubines, and priests. And so, and that's their caste system. And that is all self-made, self-regulated. I do not think it's super ethical. I understand that
Katie Jo (15:54.15)
The way they have separated those have to do with their perceived notion of how their energy is being transmuted and how their energy healing works. But to me it falls very close in line with Reiki, but it's almost like...
Katie Jo (16:15.826)
We also got ahold of the vampire at the masquerade and ran with some tarms.
Jared Howell (16:16.258)
Yeah.
Jared Howell (16:20.984)
Yeah, that's like I guess that's my problem with it to you. mean I have problems with reiki to you I think I'm gonna make so many people mad with this podcast now that I'm talking to someone for the first time Because you're the first scheduled interview. I'm gonna make so many people upset I think reiki is bullshit to you, but I like I mean that's the purpose of this podcast hopefully I'll get somebody that practices on here and we'll talk about reiki and See if they can not debate me, but I just want to know I want to know because I've never really talked to anybody but that is
Katie Jo (16:30.482)
I'm here for it. I'm here for it.
Jared Howell (16:50.858)
Insane. don't know. I can't imagine being like, yeah, I'm a concubine like did they wear like Like puff ties were they out there and like ascots and Then they're just not doing themselves any favors
Katie Jo (17:03.493)
Yes. Yes. Oh my gosh, Jared. And my favorite part about this whole thing is like we stayed in the haunted Airbnb. That was really cool. I had a really scary moment in that Airbnb. And I think some of this is also the power of belief. So like if you believe in psychokinesis, I mean, I think there is a lot of potential that we can tap into. However.
like some of the stuff that happened there like we filmed at one spot which was the haunted airbnb super cool amazing spot had some spooky stuff happen we also filmed at someone's house who identifies as a psychic vampire one of the more notable psychic vampires
and they were in a subdivision in their backyard that had a whole labyrinth in it also had their neighbor's child's playground within view so the surrealness of okay we're massive energy healers I've got a whole shrine in my basement this is big dark spooky magic versus okay there's toddlers running around next door we're in suburbia
is mind-blowing.
Jared Howell (18:27.224)
Yeah, I don't you just made me think of this house that was in my one of my friend's old neighborhoods that had they had like the gothic Bars on all the windows and at night they had purple lights in their windows But there were no cars in the driveway You never saw anybody come in or out Like it was the creepiest house of all time and now I'm like were those psychic like were those vampire people? because in
Katie Jo (18:54.342)
There's a lot in the oval.
Jared Howell (18:56.734)
So there was one time we saw their garage door open and there was just a like a white van in it and we were like, it made me think of, have you ever seen the Tom Hanks movie, The Burbs, where he's convinced his neighbors are vampires? That's how I felt. was like, that their kidnapper van? Is that how they murder people? It was weird, but I know, I've actually, I know there's a bunch, so now I'm scared. I'm gonna get, I'm not scared.
Katie Jo (19:09.392)
Yes.
Jared Howell (19:23.502)
I'm not gonna get kidnapped by vampires for a podcast no one's gonna listen to. We're good.
Katie Jo (19:28.336)
Not with that attitude! Listen, if you get kidnapped by vampires, I wanna join you. Call me.
Jared Howell (19:35.859)
Alright, I'll call. yeah, I'll call. So, alright, that was a total sidetrack. Sorry, I couldn't stay on the rails. So, Boo812, we're doing investigations, we're doing the academic stuff. When did the academic side, like, was ghost hunting first for you and then you fell in love with the academic side or vice versa?
Katie Jo (20:04.594)
It kind of...so I would say that ghost hunting was definitely first because I was a big fan of what was on TV. Like, I loved ghost hunters. It was something that my family sat around and watched all the time. Which makes ScareFest all that more surreal. But then when I was able to take a parapsychology class, I was like...
I lived my best life during my undergrad and did not take college seriously at all. I was like, I'm gonna hunt ghosts and I'm gonna go study hyenas in Africa. And I was a communications major. I had no business doing either of those things. So really the passion for like, haunt phenomenon was there.
and the parapsychology class was like the turbo booster that just like ignited it.
Jared Howell (21:04.526)
So on the academic side of things, one thing I want to talk about a lot is just, and we've talked about this sort of in passing as we do events and stuff, but it's a big thing for me as like a sort of skeptic. I don't really call myself a skeptic, I guess, because I'm kind of a believer, but the history of magicians, we've got this long past of
Katie Jo (21:04.666)
Awesome.
Jared Howell (21:32.994)
debunking and defrauding people and psychics and all this stuff. And I think part of the
Side to that is how little magicians know about academic research. So I can't really talk about this because I swore to secrecy, but I talked to a psychical researcher recently, and you know some of this behind the scenes, but about a famous case and we were, I was talking to him about why I can't buy it. And mainly it was because
I know more about deception than you and I wasn't there. Like that's the reason I can't. Cause they're like, did X, Y, Z to debunk this and there's no way you could have done it. And like, there's a way. Like, there's totally a way. And I'm also sworn to secrecy. So I can't tell you that way. Cause it'll dox all magicians everywhere. like there's, but I was also surprised at
He had video of the lead researcher on this case doing debunking and that guy went way farther than I could have imagined that he actually went. Because I think the perception is that all the researchers doing this want to believe and they're all marks and they're all just doing whatever they can to prove it exists and that's not the case. Is that your experience on the academic side of things?
Katie Jo (23:09.924)
It depends on the institution. I will say there are some researchers out there who want to believe so bad. Like, I feel like you have your Mulders and your Skullies and at the end of the day, that's kind of the beauty of the academic research is that you can stack it because we only know what we know at the time. But if someone publishes an article,
in the 1950s and you come back today and are like, hey, here's five different ways I could have made that happen that this researcher didn't account for. We can rerun the study and we can take the exact same methodology that that researcher used and if we get the same conditions but you're able to deceive it, then we just publish basically an amendment to that article saying, hey, yes, this
happened under these conditions, but we didn't consider these conditions. And so I guess that's one of the cool things about science is that it's not static and it stacks and it builds on other bodies of research too.
Jared Howell (24:12.984)
Yeah.
Jared Howell (24:23.566)
So there are some interesting things there. So I guess I can say this. So I was talking with someone about Ted Sirius, which is psychic bellhop, which is my favorite bit in all of history. And if you don't know who Ted Sirius is, he could send what he called thoughtographs. So he would stare into, at the time it would have just been the Polaroid land camera, and whatever he was thinking of would show up on the film when they took the photo. So there are cases like that where
Jared Howell (24:55.84)
I don't like that guy will never exist again. So we can't stack it right. So aren't there and I guess we're kind of maybe past the golden age of like weird shit like that happening or being out there because like I don't know like if.
It's so weird because if there was like John Edwards or somebody we could study him, but it wouldn't, I don't know. And it's the weirder cases that are more compelling, I think for that reason, because we can't go back.
Katie Jo (25:29.456)
Yeah, and they just kind of all fall into this weird little anomaly drawer and we say, here's what happened. Can't explain it, but here's what happened. Have you seen the docuseries Surviving Death on Netflix? No.
Jared Howell (25:47.425)
No, I haven't.
Katie Jo (25:48.718)
Ooh, I highly recommend it because they take scientists from like the Princeton lab, which is called Pair, and then they take people from the Ryan Research Institute, but then they pair it with people who are studying like hospice care and like the similar things that happen as people are like on their way out of this life. And it's...
It's really interdisciplinary with, like, we call it parapsychology, but it's really interdisciplinary in that it touches a little bit of everything. Like, you can't study this without getting into a little bit of physics. You can't study it without getting into a little bit of sociology, which is where I'm at now. You can't study it without getting into, like, my gosh, the quantum people. I don't understand what they're saying, but I love it.
But surviving death does a really good job at breaking that all down to layman language and saying, here's what we're currently researching, here's what has been researched, and here's some ways we're gonna adapt this to the future.
Jared Howell (27:03.47)
That's awesome. I'm gonna check that out. think the, I'm sorry, I've also just been thinking of all the like weird near-death experiences I've had friends have, and also I was a nurse's aide for a long time, so experiencing stuff like firsthand like that is kind of weird too. So do you have a field of study? I'm like all over the place. I need to take notes. So how do you think...
people can better bulletproof their studies to rule out. I guess, let me back up, parapsychology studies aren't a big thing today. Do you have a feeling as to why?
Katie Jo (27:52.036)
So earlier I think I mentioned the file drawer effect and there's a lot of fear among academic researchers that if they publish a study in this field the rest of their studies forever will be deemed like woo-woo.
like it automatically decreases your credibility if you even consider looking in the parapsychology realm. So a lot of people have just kind of strayed away. We didn't know that the phylo-drawer effect would happen until it started happening. I feel like there's also some conspiracy stuff here where people have been told to stop studying in certain directions. And I...
don't want to end up on a list so I don't want to go too far into that. So I think that's led people to kind of study adjacent to parapsychology. So like where I am is like recreational fear and I think as, gosh, recreational fear and horror is fun but like the weird stuff that happens when you're studying the normal stuff
kind of keeps that parapsychological stuff alive. And you can always just put like a little note in your research and be like, hey, this is what we initially started studying, like, anomaly noted, like the two times we did this, we got a voice or like something through itself across the room. And you just like note it. And then you go back to doing whatever else you were doing.
Jared Howell (29:32.909)
That's cool. there's the, I guess the fear of like not being taken seriously. I'm sure that's like big nightmare for researchers, scientists, parapsychologists, all these people. So what do you think?
Katie Jo (29:33.116)
Cut,
Jared Howell (29:52.845)
Created that stigma that it was woo-woo
bullshit. Like, cause it's, I have a theory, but I also have an extremely biased theory. So I'm curious what you guys think as someone that's lived in this world for so long.
Katie Jo (30:11.312)
I think there's a couple of things. I think there's some armchair skeptics who are just diehard diehard skeptics. Like no matter what, an alien could come down, look them in the face and like say hi and they would go, no, I'm hallucinating. Even if they're not. So I feel like there are pseudo skeptics out in the field who publish against this. I feel like magicians like
not being brought in on a lot of these initial experiments that were done back in like from I guess the 40s to today. Like you knowing how to debunk something is extraordinarily valuable and should have input on some of the scientific study. And then I like, just, feel like there is.
There's a conspiracy level to it. I really do. I feel like there is a lot to benefit from not looking in these directions.
Jared Howell (31:17.409)
Yeah, that makes sense. think the magician's thing is what I always, I mean, that's kind of the premise, half the premise to this podcast is that it's like a goal to bridge that gap for me because there's so many amazing Randys, the easiest one to pick on because he destroyed a whole lab. Like he just, he reached out to them and said, hey, I can help you do this. They said, no, thank you. And then he just destroyed them.
like with two kids that just do magic tricks. And then after that, he has his whole foundation and there are still guys in that foundation that immediately.
like change back Wikipedia articles on Rhyne on all these things they're just vicious. It's like their whole life like it makes me think of there's this guy that Moby famously hated because he would find samples electronic music artists used and like then snitch on them to like Sony or whoever so they would get copyright striked and Moby would be like I used like two seconds of that clip you asshole so
Katie Jo (32:06.854)
now.
Katie Jo (32:20.483)
Jared Howell (32:27.339)
That's how I feel about these guys. I feel like they did more damage in those moments on their high horse than they could have done any amount of good. So I do blame us quite a bit for that. I do think maybe we should have been invited, but there's also I know enough magicians to to be like, I would do it for free or very little money if I had to travel. And I also know magicians that would be like, I have three thousand dollars show. I'm not going to go sit in the lab for a month. And yeah, so.
Katie Jo (32:54.096)
Right, right.
Jared Howell (32:56.813)
It's a hard thing. think that's tough. Hopefully we can change that. are there things, because now we've got a lot more people on the fringes, yeah, that are kind of doing research. So, and also, like you said, like they're, feel like the people that are going to find shit are going to be, you know,
Katie Jo (33:11.1)
Right.
Jared Howell (33:24.309)
trying to make up John Smith of Country Redneck Names that's out in like, Paducah, Kentucky with his paranormal research team and they're just podunks in buildings with tape recorders but they find something really fucking good and we're not gonna be able to take it seriously because all the X-Factor, right? So like, what are things that people can do like...
Katie Jo (33:34.556)
Right.
Jared Howell (33:51.63)
you know, average Joe people that just do this for a hobby, what are things they can do to like set themselves up for success? Is there anything or is it always just gonna be shit on?
Katie Jo (34:03.346)
I think there will always be a level of academic skepticism to citizen science. Because unless you have someone who has sat through like empirical research classes, who knows how to like turn something into a lab quality like environment, there's always gonna be a level of skepticism of citizen science.
I don't think that should deter people from playing around though because I think a lot... I mean you can't... gosh. I wanted to say you can't bring a ghost to a lab but like I literally participated in a seance study where at Indiana University Southeast in their lab space we set up monitors on three different rooms
had our middle room be the one where we had a fake seance. We said we're gonna summon this ghost. We know this ghost is fake. But like stuff happened. Like we don't know why stuff happened. So like maybe you can summon a ghost tomorrow. I just think.
I... It's kind of like a fuck around and find out situation. And I think as weird stuff continues to happen,
Katie Jo (35:31.58)
We're just gonna keep throwing our hands up in the air and going, I don't know why it happened, but here are the conditions it happened under. But I really do love how you were talking about like hillbillies in Kentucky because at ScareFest after my talk.
I met somebody that was in a group called Hillbillies into Paranormal Shit and it was hips and so, I love that. There is no reason people should be deterred from playing around ethically because of this academic rigor. I think we can kind of live in harmony and just say, here's where we can help in academia, here's...
There is a level of truth to what you're doing, but we just can't run it through the same protocol.
Jared Howell (36:21.773)
Yeah, so there's an unfairness in the way people are treated and that I was thinking of and I was trying to think of how to like say it. But so like I've been an artist my whole life, graduated high school, hopped in a van, played music, came back, did haunted houses, got tired of that bullshit, now I'm a magician. That's how I've grifted my entire life. I'm not taking seriously unless I make a billion dollars a year by like
most people, right? Like artists don't get taken seriously. And I think there's like a parallel there to kind of like, maybe not, maybe this is a bad parallel. But I guess what I'm trying to say is like hips, right? Like, cool, let's go check them out. Let's support them because that sounds dope. I have no idea if they're good, but they sound awesome. And we're talking about them. So check them out. I think that like, I don't know, it's easy for me to think rednecks are stupid.
Katie Jo (37:10.834)
No idea.
Jared Howell (37:21.705)
Like, I've thought that my whole life. I'm a punk rock kid from the Bible Belt, so I fucking hate rednecks. But it's crazy to me how many times I'll be talking to somebody that I genuinely think, like, bless his heart. Like, this person's a fucking moron. And then I talk about paranormal stuff, or I talk about tarot cards, or I'm talking about something that I think is going to be way above their head. And I kind of smirk and I...
I of hint at what I'm talking about and then they pick up the hint and then they're more fluent in that thing than I could ever have dreamed of because they're very much into it and they're learning at home. So I guess what I'm saying is it's not fair that their accent and the place they live makes them not taken seriously. And it's also as a artsy fartsy kid that's never been to college really, Bible college that doesn't count. But
I mean, I worked at a job for a long time where I was a financial aid counselor and I got laid off because I didn't have a college degree. And I was like, but Becky in the next cube has a college degree in photography, but she gets to stay. Like, I know the same bullshit she knows. Like, there's no difference in education. it sucks that because someone can read a book better than me, they're
Katie Jo (38:33.073)
Right.
Katie Jo (38:45.554)
They probably can't even read the book better than you. Like, like there are barriers to education in the United States, but like...
Like listen, I'm only in a dual master's and PhD program because I work for a university who is paying for the program. Like I would never be able to do this without the privilege of working at that university. So there's a level of privilege there. There's a level of gatekeeping that happens. I think Courtney's a great person to talk to how to get around the academic paywall because you can't look at a lot of these research journals
Unless you have like EBSCO host or a subscription through a university. Like there's a lot you just cannot research which hinders citizen scientists who want to. I will say that's kind of a uniquely United States issue though. Like I've studied paranormal and now...
six countries. So, I mean, and it's taken seriously in a lot more countries than we'd expect. And there's a lot more...
acceptance of it especially in like like I almost got kicked out of Vietnam for bringing my spirit box because it's a digital Ouija board and they take that so seriously that like you leave the dead alone and I mean there's a lot US based that hinders paranormal psychology in general
Jared Howell (40:25.291)
It's interesting that other places take it more seriously than us. think we're kind of like, it's so crazy. America is just a weird ass place to live. I think we're almost liminal in a way because we've built, we like paved the road for a lot of stuff and then are also just so stupid and steadfast about the dumbest shit. So.
Katie Jo (40:25.404)
Thanks.
Katie Jo (40:44.667)
No.
Jared Howell (40:50.901)
Are you, what's your take on things? so this, I guess if I were gonna have to boil this down to a point which I hate to do, it would be about, like the whole pitch is I'm a magician, I'm a tarot reader, I'm in this space where I'm part of two communities that hate each other, I'm in the middle and I'm finding interesting stories with people that are in the paranormal world. And so I'm really exploring skepticism versus belief.
and just kind of living in that world because I often my perception before really before I started hanging out with you or places where I met you is that everybody just they're all in they believe everything like there's no limit and now I'm learning that it's kind of like the fun of some of it like is just we got to spice it up but and that
from an outside perspective could make things look wonky, but where do you sit on that scale? Because I kind of pegged you as more of somebody that would be a believer, but then on an investigation, Kristen said you were a little bit more skeptic. So like.
Katie Jo (42:06.253)
I am a yes.
Katie Jo (42:11.12)
Yeah, I'm definitely a heavy skeptic. Now, I feel like with the right amount of evidence, my mind can be swayed. Do I think haunt phenomenon happens? Yes. Do I think you're talking to your dead grandma? I don't know about that. Like, I know that things happen that seem like coincidences. Like I've...
I've got coworkers who say, hey, like, this person was close to me, they died, and now I find pennies everywhere. But there's also that bias of like, if you think about a red car, if you're gonna go buy a red car, you see them everywhere. So, I kind of like to sit on the line of, this is fun to explore, yes, I have seen some bananas things that I cannot explain.
I don't necessarily know where it's coming from. I tend to fall more under the time is not linear crowd and that maybe we are having impressions and stuff is just like, like I think it's great that we're doing this the day after Halloween. Like the veil is thin. So maybe time is just happening on top of itself and something's slipping through.
Maybe we are the ghosts to somebody else 30 years from now and they are like, I don't know, they're like, you have, I got this whiff of this really weird smell and it's just because I lit my candle in my house. Or like, personally, hot phenomenon wise, like I had a surgery one.
Kristin and I decided to go to Bobby Mackey's the day before I had to be at a surgery at like 5 a.m. And so we got home at like 2 a.m., had to like book it and like do the whole pre-surgical scrub and everything. While I am in the shower, I hear something say, hey, Katie, like clear as day. And it's like...
Katie Jo (44:30.674)
Three o'clock in the morning, there is no reason for anything to be saying my name. I live alone. Like, I thought my dad had maybe gotten to my house, but it definitely wasn't his voice.
That would fall under haunt phenomenon, but I also know, hey, I just spent a whole night priming myself for something spooky to happen. I have very little sleep. I'm under a lot of stress because I'm having a surgery in an hour. I will rationalize myself out of belief, even if maybe there is some more credit to it than I'm giving it.
Jared Howell (45:13.453)
I'm in the middle sort of to you. I feel like I've had some crazy experiences So here's one that I've never told anybody so this is first time but when I was a nurse's aid nurses aid suffer a huge amount of burnout because we just work so hard for long shifts were lifting people all day. We're doing a really tough job and When we used to say once you're burnt out just quit
because you're just gonna hurt or kill somebody. And I was burnt out, but there were two little old ladies that I loved that I was like, once they're gone, I'm gonna stay till they're gone. And then I'm out. And I did, but the first one to go was a lady named Beverly that I just loved. We were buddies. I was the only male aide she'd let take care of her. And we knew she was in hospice care and all that. So we knew her time was up.
And I would go sit with her a lot and just kind of hold her hand. She wouldn't talk or anything. She she's very tired and more out. But. I was working the late shift and I was coming out of a hallway and I look up and I saw Beverly down the hall. Walking towards the bathroom now, she didn't walk. She was she was immobile. She's in a wheelchair. So like I just remember my breath catching and I was like, she's gone.
And I went to check on her and sure enough, yeah, she had passed away. So like, what the fuck was that? Right? Like that's where I get hung up because the like time stuff is, makes a lot of sense to me. One of the scariest things I ever had happen to me were footsteps around my bed at night. and that the time stuff that all makes sense. But then we get into territories like that, where I'm like, that's so recent and like,
I don't know that she ever walked while she was in that building. it's. It's just crazy the way I. The way I take it is just to. Deep in my faith and that there's something bigger out there, I guess. And try and not get hung up on the like, what is like, what is that? Why is that those kind of big questions? Do you do you ever try and like?
Katie Jo (47:16.336)
Yeah.
Jared Howell (47:39.917)
console yourself in that way of just like, there's something, or do you believe there's something bigger or are you not even that far of a believer? Are you more skeptic than that?
Katie Jo (47:50.697)
I...
This is a hard one for me to answer because I'm very fluid on my belief here. But like what you explained is what's called a crisis apparition. I don't know if we've talked about those before, but that is one of the most studied segments of haunt phenomenon that is out there. And it's like, Kristen Courtney and I, when we were talking at the Strangers Thing, yeah, Stranger Things.
event that we did with Southern Indiana Tourism, it's like crisis apparitions are kind of similar to that feeling of, hey I haven't heard from grandma and I haven't heard from grandma in a couple of weeks, like maybe I should call her and then she calls you. And like, it's weird, it's weird, you... it's weird. That's about where I land on it.
But a lot of people are experiencing it. It's being studied around the globe. then I just kind of... Like I have... The episode of Haunted Discovery's Family Spirits that I'm gonna be on, we filmed it last year, but it should be coming out sometime in the next couple of months. I go into this a little bit more, but... I would say... Okay. Hold on.
buffering. Have you seen Midnight Mass?
Jared Howell (49:21.867)
You're fine.
Jared Howell (49:27.485)
No, I actually started to watch it, but I got a little bored. My ADD runs mad. It's on my list of things to really like sit down and watch though, because I've seen some clips that I really love of the sheriff in particular. But go on. No. So.
Katie Jo (49:40.178)
He's like my celebrity crush. He would be my celebrity friend. So in Midnight Mass, think it is a beautiful dialogue about religion. Like it is one of my favorite shows of all time. Mike Flanagan, love him to death. But there's a dialogue about what they think happens after we die.
Jared Howell (49:44.161)
He's a hottie.
Katie Jo (50:10.382)
And I tend to fall into that category of like, we started as everything, we came together as what we are right now, and then we go back into the everything. And that's comforting to some people, that scares the hell out of other people, but like to me...
I feel like that gives a little bit more street cred to, okay, maybe as everything I can return to a version of myself, aka like a ghost, and communicate with like Kristen or Courtney. Like, the fact that Kristen has heard my voice while I've been thinking about her makes me think that like, okay, maybe even as living, breathing humans, there is a portion
of us that is still attached to that everything. And I think some people call it the collective consciousness. That kind of gets lumped into some woo-woo stuff, but I don't know. I don't know. I feel like that's why I'm into this is because no one, no one knows and anyone who tells you that they know is a liar or they have really convinced themselves that they know. But like, no one knows.
Jared Howell (51:30.796)
Yeah, I think I mean my favorite thing to say is believe or doubt like 50 % of what like a psychic tells you because I have people in my shows I mean you've seen it happen literally now where I literally start the evening by saying I'm a magician I cheat and then I make a lady cry and then Everybody at the end is like so how long have you had your gift and it's like I just told Six years. I just I read it. I don't know like it's
Katie Jo (51:31.056)
Yes.
Katie Jo (51:55.57)
Right?
Jared Howell (52:00.809)
So it's weird to me that like I understand the wanting to believe in the need to believe. I do have like I don't know I'm trying to say. I think it has a lot to do. My theory, my take right now, which will change in two weeks, is that that makes a lot of sense because I always thought it had something to do with your aptitude for empathy. Like how if that makes sense, right? I'm trying to think of the right words like.
Katie Jo (52:15.143)
Right.
Jared Howell (52:29.249)
I'm a very empathetic person to a frustrating degree for people around me. Like my girlfriend, I'm always like, well, maybe they feel this way. Have you tried talking to him about that on that level? And she's like, wait, pick my side asshole. And I'm like, you're right. I'm sorry. But I just like, I'm always thinking about what other people feel. And I think over time, that's made me sensitive to everything.
So I kind of wonder like if people and like you can kind of tune back into those things, if that makes sense. And also, have you seen ashes under a microscope?
Katie Jo (53:07.449)
haven't. No. Like, is-
Jared Howell (53:09.197)
Google that right now. Can I Google it and show you? want to find it. So yeah, human ashes under a microscope.
Katie Jo (53:14.405)
Yes.
Jared Howell (53:20.385)
You're here typing, I'll edit this out.
Katie Jo (53:20.56)
Thanks.
Katie Jo (53:24.557)
Are you gonna pull it up and share?
Jared Howell (53:27.195)
yeah, I'll see if I can. Let me see.
Katie Jo (53:30.054)
Well, and so like I also worked in on the fringes of funeral service for a while. So like I would go to funeral directors conventions and man the stories that they have. Like there's just too many people across too many areas of life that have stories about something happening. Okay, yeah, beautiful. Like that's what?
Jared Howell (53:55.468)
Yeah, so that I always thought because it looked like space that that plays into that theory that we all just go back to like everything. It's kind of nuts, though. It's real crazy.
Katie Jo (54:05.104)
Yeah, and I think that's beautiful. think that... Yeah, like, I don't know. I...
Katie Jo (54:18.642)
I love it. I hate it. I don't think there's ever going to be a way to prove it. And I don't think that that's a bad thing. I don't think it's a bad thing that there are things left unknown. But I do think one of the cool things about the paranormal field in general, whether you're a Bigfoot person or a ghost person or a woo-woo-rakey person or a psychic vampire, like, I think...
Jared Howell (54:22.021)
Ha!
Katie Jo (54:46.032)
The one thing that bonds us all is that we either know someone who has a story or we have a story and it's something we can't explain and like the body language around people who are like...
I feel like people get really geeked after I've talked about my interests in the paranormal and people come up and be like, well, like you can, you can watch people rationalize themselves out of what they experience. And they're like embarrassed to tell you that, Hey, like I had this, I saw Beverly walking and you just are like, you're like, I know that shouldn't have happened. I know that.
didn't happen, but it did happen.
And I kind of love that. Like, I love that weird spot that people go when they're trying to rationalize the paranormal.
Jared Howell (55:45.174)
Yeah, and I don't know, it's weird that even me, because I'm pretty open to talking about stuff that it's like, I've just never talked about that because it was one, it was very close to me. I think I'm so far removed now that it doesn't like hurt my heart to talk about anymore. But I don't know why. Like, it's kind of interesting to think like why people hold that stuff in because I really do like.
getting into that space, you can just see the weight lifted off someone's shoulders too in a lot of cases where you're like talking to them about experiences and all that. So we've just got a couple of minutes left. I won't hold you too long, but I wanted to talk. Is there anything you can share about your current projects and like what you're working on now? Or is it all under lock and key since you're like writing papers and doing all the hard work? Because there's a bunch of crossover for me there as well.
Katie Jo (56:38.852)
Well, so I mean I could talk about it, but like I also just got super scolded by like my research methods teacher who was like, I don't
think you know what you're talking about. And like, I kind of love that about academia because like, okay, like I, yes, I do not fully know what I'm talking about. And that's part of the reason I'm trying to study it. But trying to put a framework around how you're going to ask questions and research groups of people. Like right now, right now as it is sitting, I want my experiment.
for the sake of this class to be researching people who go through haunted house experiences and attractions. So not like a house that is haunted, but like haunted house attraction. I wanna study people who are going through those and their motivations as to why. Like why are we doing that for fun? You know you're gonna get scared. You know.
In some cases people are going to touch you. There's a level of consent that is exchanged in that whole thing. But as I've been dissecting how I want to do that experiment, I have just been mind blown into how many different questions there are. So right now I'm...
thinking about taking a curveball approach and potentially studying scare actors in relation to deviant leisure.
Jared Howell (58:22.285)
Okay.
Katie Jo (58:22.322)
I don't know if that... do I need to break that down anymore? Okay.
Jared Howell (58:27.149)
Not for me. So Deviant Leisure sounds phenomenal. Different than sex work, but not really. like, okay.
Katie Jo (58:37.294)
Not really, not really. Because there's like a consent, like that is one crossover that's been blowing my mind as I've been looking for literature around this, is that a lot of it has to do with being, okay, so there's a really cool study by Margie Kerr and a few other, I think it's Kerr, Siegel, and Ocini.
They do a study of haunted houses where they strap people up to medical equipment and say, hey, go through this haunted house and they track what spikes as arousal. And arousal can mean anything from like...
getting hot and heavy to, I'm just really excited. But there is a huge crossover in like things that freak us out and things that arouse us. And it's called the Vein Study because it's voluntary, it's like voluntary, voluntary exposure to negative...
I'll have to look it up and send it to you, but it is bananas and I love it. But I've recently been getting into more literature from the Recreational Fear Institute in Denmark and they do all sorts of crazy research that I am here for. Like, I want to take a field trip there so bad.
Jared Howell (01:00:06.957)
That sounds awesome. I didn't even know that was a thing. And I've been in that world forever.
Katie Jo (01:00:10.02)
I didn't either until yesterday.
But they help make games like, like phasmophobia more enticing. And there's some research going out there. it's fairly recent, like since 2020, that is maybe we are using fear to help therapeutically with issues of anxiety and depression. And
I'm kind of here for it. That sounds really cool. Like, if you know you're putting yourself in a situation where you have no control, you don't know what's going to happen, this is like worst case scenario for you. And like, did I ever tell you why I chose haunted houses? I know we talked about haunted houses, but did I ever tell you like why I went that direction? So first of all, it's because I'm an idiot.
Jared Howell (01:00:57.898)
No.
Katie Jo (01:01:03.306)
And so I was a professional Boy Scout in one of my past careers. And Boy Scouts party hard when we go to trainings. And we went to a training down in Gatlinburg with a different Scout council. And they all wanted to go moonshine tasting and I don't drink. So I was like, OK, well, we're in Gatlinburg. Like, what is within walkable distance? The Ripley's, believe it or not, haunted house.
I decided to go walk through alone. It was the stupidest thing I have ever done. I hadn't been in a haunted house since I was a Girl Scout, and so that would have been like 15 years. I haven't been in a haunted house since, and like...
They said at the very beginning, are you sure you want to go through this alone? And I was like, yeah, I can do it. What's the worst that can happen? The sensory overload was insane. Their weird sensory meat wall thing in complete darkness was insane. But at the very beginning, he said, here is a safe word. I want you to say it if you want out.
and I said it probably 25 times and they did not take me out. And so that just like lit something up forever for me and now I'm like really interested in this interaction between... And like to be clear, I would have been mad if they would have pulled me out and I wouldn't have gotten through the end of that. So like, I don't know, I'm really just curious about that intersection.
as well as the rest of the literature around recreational fear.
Jared Howell (01:02:49.963)
what year would that have been?
Katie Jo (01:02:53.266)
Oh Oh gosh, um, I quit the scouts in 2019, so 2018 or 2017? Oh no.
Jared Howell (01:03:02.529)
no, I know, I was gonna say I know a guy that was the director for the Ripley Haunt. I don't know if it, I don't think it was that year though, but I can ask him if it is, I can get you in contact, because that's kind of a neat thing. But yeah, that's, he won't, I mean, nobody cares. The haunted, the haunted attraction industry is like barely an industry, like.
Katie Jo (01:03:16.594)
And I don't want to get them in trouble. I don't want to get them in trouble at all.
Jared Howell (01:03:27.457)
The only people that make money are the fucking owners, so none of us give a shit anymore. Like the old, especially the OGs, like we don't care. We'll talk shit about everybody. We'll do whatever we want. Cause you paid us in pizza, so you deserve what you get. Like I think that's kind of the thought for most of us, but it's interesting. I think you're going to get a lot of different stuff because I will say this is a hot take. This is going to make a bunch of people mad. I won't have any crossover, but
the scare actors that I think enjoy scaring people have lower IQs. This is, I'm just saying, like, I think it has to do with lack of, I can't think of the word I want to use, willpower? That's not exactly right, but like,
Katie Jo (01:04:05.415)
Pah!
Jared Howell (01:04:22.003)
lack of discernment. don't know. I can't think of the right word I want to use, but it would be like, you know, I don't have like maybe lack of self control or I can't think of the right word. There's a specific word that describes exactly what I want to say, but it's like not not being able to pull yourself back. Like I'm going to buy that hat. I want that hat. I'm just going to get it. Like I just do what I want. Like those types of people. Yeah, they lack self-restraint and.
Katie Jo (01:04:42.832)
like self-restraint.
Jared Howell (01:04:49.931)
The rest of us are just theater kids that didn't break it. So we get to play dress up and do characters. Because a lot of haunted houses, there are some that'll assign you a character. But the haunted houses that I ran always became sort of more popular because I would be like, here's the story of the haunted house. I want everybody to write a character. And then let's go to the costume room and see what we can find to make your character.
Or go to the costume room now and find some pieces. And that's what brought, I would see kids that were just like closed up and shy put on a mask and like bust out of their shell. so I think, and I'm that way too. Like I would, I could put on something and then immediately be like, I'd have a weird voice all of a sudden. And I'd be like a different character, like a different person almost. So I think that.
that part of like the theater kid really comes out for like half of us and like I sent you contact for my friend Maddie who's she's she was handed a role of sister temperance at not scary farm this year so and she's crushing it like seeing her stories and stuff but she's very she's she's maybe a tweener because I've seen her do some really scary shit I think we all have
So I want to be clear, I'm not saying just because you like to scare people. I'm talking about like everybody knows if you're a scare actor and you happen to listen to this, you know a guy that like goes too far all the time and like corners people in his room and doesn't let him go. Those are the people I'm talking about. Yeah, but I think a lot more of us are just theater kids that like to role play and like dress up. And then.
Katie Jo (01:06:26.896)
Hmm, interesting.
Jared Howell (01:06:39.255)
Customers I also think there's a big crossover between people that just want to scape and horror movies are their thing And then I've done the extreme haunted houses where we like waterboard people and stuff those You cannot convince me otherwise that a hundred percent of people that go through that are not it's not a kink for them Because that was the first thing the first the first hour. I was there. I was like, this is a kink thing I'm doing a kink thing like
Katie Jo (01:07:07.783)
Yeah?
Jared Howell (01:07:08.005)
And it was, I felt, I felt gross. Like I couldn't, I couldn't continue. I, so I worked behind the scenes because I kind of helped a bunch of the haunts in this area anyway, at least learn how to do touch haunting safely. So from that perspective, Ted, my friend Teddy and I knew like, you know, this is how you grab someone's hair. This is how you like, so it was like stuff like that. There were, could teach people to do safely. So we kind of worked from behind the scenes after that because
It was just too weird for me. But it's an interesting thing. I do think it's fun that you've already highlighted that there's a crossover there.
Katie Jo (01:07:44.934)
Well, and if it eases your mind at all, the Recreational Fear Institute has done a couple of experiments on haunted houses and they divided the customer base into three groups. So you have the adrenaline junkies who are in it and that's probably like your kink class. Like those are the people who are just in it to like feel. And then you have the white knucklers who are in it.
for some level of personal growth. Like they wanna be scared so they can prove themselves as brave, so they can like get that ego boost. And then you have what's called the dark hopers. And those are the people who are a little bit of both, where like they get excited by the fear, but they're not fully in it for the personal growth, but it like happens that it meshes really well.
And that's the research I'm kind of like diving headfirst into right now. So I'm going to need to stay connected with you, Jared, about like who I can talk to because I think my research is going to end up ultimately being interviewing scare actors and interviewing people who go through extreme haunted attractions to figure out why.
Jared Howell (01:09:02.538)
Yeah, mean, scare actors are going to be where your your like good information is because we've done it all. I will say like, I mean, there's going to be a lot of bullshit to sift through to, but I can get you in touch with people that are good at what they do. So but we understand it on like a much higher level. It's it's insane, though, and I think there's a there's another customer. So it's always funny to see people like talk about it. But there are people that just go through to laugh like.
Katie Jo (01:09:13.082)
yeah.
Jared Howell (01:09:30.294)
to just have fun. Like they're not scared, they're not having a bad time. And I think that was a big part of my training is, cause you would get kids that would be like, well it's my job to scare people and like that guy's not scared of me. Like what do I do? And they get so disheartened that they're not scary. And I'm like, you make them laugh. Like that's the only thing you can do is make them laugh. And I think.
Katie Jo (01:09:55.1)
Yes.
Jared Howell (01:09:55.191)
There are people that come through just for the shits and giggles of it. They like to laugh at their friends being scared. They like to laugh at us when we do funny things, because sometimes like people are scared of the dumbest shit. So I don't even know my I guess the best example I have is. It was Halloween once is like the first haunted house ever worked, but we thought it would be funny for all our haunt characters to dress up. So my friend Tad, he's like scary from the neck down, but his face.
is just Paul Stanley's kiss makeup. And so he just pops out of a corner and goes, I can't hear you. Like Paul Stanley would yell and like scared the shit out of like a whole bunch of people. And we're dying laughing. But like we're a lot of times we're not even doing anything that scary. People are just chicken shits. So it's so.
Katie Jo (01:10:27.295)
Okay.
Jared Howell (01:10:53.14)
There's a whole class of people that just know my girlfriend's gonna be scared of everything. So let's just go for it.
Katie Jo (01:11:01.102)
Okay, yeah, I'm so excited to dive further into this. Like, I'm not allowed to, like, start actually doing research, just to clarify, until I get IRB approval. So I probably... I'm gonna be in the building stage of this until next fall, but I think we'll be ready to rock and roll next fall. I'm very excited to, like, go down this path. Scare actors, don't think anyone has studied yet. Scare actors and professional wrestlers. There's...
Jared Howell (01:11:09.484)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Katie Jo (01:11:30.359)
very little data on. And I think they're very similar.
Jared Howell (01:11:34.157)
There's a huge crossover of professional wrestlers that do scare actors, scare acting too. Like a lot of the local guys work at haunted houses and they're good at it too. So we can, like we would do crazy shit just because my friend, Tad, Paul Stanley, he is a pro, he's like an indie wrestler.
Katie Jo (01:11:41.65)
Really?
Jared Howell (01:11:59.565)
So we would do crazy shit because we would just teach the little haunt girls how to post and how to take bumps. And so they'd walk in a room and like my friend Teddy would have a girl like a wait there's this girl little Emily that he worked with but he would grab her by the throat and pick her all the way up and Teddy's like six one. So he would just have her on the wall and like people would be like what the fuck like it was gnarly looking just because we'd teach them like.
We didn't do anything like dangerous, but we teach them like pro wrestling techniques to like make fake combat better because theater pro wrestlers do that better than theater. They do it better than a lot of like any live entertainment. So the best place to learn how to fake murder somebody is from a pro wrestler because they're going to know they're going to be able to teach you how to hit someone without hurting them. They're to be able to teach you how to slam someone sort of safely. That shit still hurts. And like
Yeah, it's crazy. So there's huge crossovers everywhere. It's nuts.
Katie Jo (01:12:59.346)
Can I ask you for a quick point of clarification though? You said like how to take bumps and I'm thinking like bumps. Like what do you mean?
Jared Howell (01:13:03.359)
Yeah.
Jared Howell (01:13:09.258)
no, my bad, ask Shiloh about bumps. So I'll edit this out. But it's, yeah, so no, it's when you take a bump, it's when you like, when you fall, like fall down, when you get slammed, when you go over the top rope, when you, yeah, those are called bumps. So, cause you're bumping. So.
Katie Jo (01:13:13.842)
no.
You don't have to.
Katie Jo (01:13:31.73)
Okay.
Katie Jo (01:13:35.634)
I totally was, I've never heard that. like, this, I thank you for inviting me on this because I am learning so much talking to you. and I feel like that's a big problem in academia is that we live in academia and not in the worlds that we're studying sometimes. So it's great to get the jargon down and know that, you know.
Jared Howell (01:13:44.94)
You
Katie Jo (01:14:00.048)
Because I was just thinking that scare actors are teaching people how to use cocaine.
Jared Howell (01:14:06.77)
No, no. So I also I'm total carny trash. I mean, we just talked about it. I used the word art earlier, but then I immediately said I was a grifter and that's more accurate. I think I just know all the lingo. And now like in wrestling, too, there's a terminology called kayfabe. Are you familiar with kayfabe? And.
Katie Jo (01:14:26.918)
I feel, I can't remember if you told me or if Shiloh told me, but someone told me about this and I don't remember what it means.
Jared Howell (01:14:34.252)
And so kayfabe is like, the best way to describe it is like back in the heyday of wrestling, like the late 70s, 80s, you wouldn't see like Hulk Hogan and Macho Man in a car together because one of them is a bad guy and one of them is a good guy. So they keep, they are in character. Like if you saw Hulk Hogan at a bar in the 80s, he was fucking Hulk Hogan. He wasn't Terry Bollea. Like that is kayfabe.
Katie Jo (01:14:53.33)
Gotcha.
Jared Howell (01:15:03.198)
So they would keep it up. They would keep up the act. And I that's kind of broken in pro wrestling right now. So many people know it's not real. So many people we call it. They call them the dirt sheets, which is where like all the insider trading goes on. Like word on the streets. Chris Jericho just signed a WWE and he's leaving like all that stuff like those all of its broken, all of its fucked up now. So I've just assumed that people and
Wrestling has a wrestling uses a lot of carny terminology haunted housing houses use it a lot and Magic uses a lot. So I just assume everybody knows I'm terrible at it. But yeah, bumps are Taking a bump hitting the ground doing something In that nature that's gonna hurt a little bit and then posting I said posting that is when you take a body slam if I'm being slammed it's my job to
hold part of my weight. like traditionally one hand on the upper thigh and then I'm also jumping into it and then I post on the neck and the thigh. So I'm holding half my body weight so that the person slamming me can be a big tough guy and walk around and knock their microphone over and like slam. So there are all sorts of techniques like that that you can learn from different areas. So we were really in the thick of it and just
by pure luck. were all theater kids, so we pioneered. People are going to get mad at that too, because there's different areas. We're doing different things at the same time. But for us in Kentucky, we were like the first haunt that had a storyline. And so we were bringing that kind of in. And then also two of our friends there were wrestlers. So we were like, well, how do we incorporate that? Like somebody one day was like, well, just couldn't do that. Or like
He would be like, let's fuck around and find out. So just by being shithead kids with a bunch of different hobbies, kind of, we kind of lucked into making something way bigger out of it, at least for that industry. So, and remind me, I don't know if I still have it. If not, I can try and source you one, but, my God, I'm going to forget. There's a haunted house troop from Chicago called Sven Puss. They are since disbanded.
Katie Jo (01:17:28.882)
Thank
Jared Howell (01:17:31.117)
Um, but they wrote a scare actors guide. It was like a zine that they distributed that was like best practices. Um, and we worked with, we talked to them quite a bit on my old podcast, which I can send you a link to too. It would probably be very insightful, but I did a podcast called code yellow, a scare actors podcast. So a code yellow is when a customer pisses themselves. Uh, that's where the name comes from. Uh, there's code, like we have codes.
Katie Jo (01:17:48.273)
Yeah.
Katie Jo (01:17:56.187)
Okay.
Jared Howell (01:18:00.596)
radio codes for like cleanup and aisle 10 essentially. So that's where the name came from, but it's just me and my friend Teddy talking to scare actors and probably the most insightful portion is we did 30 honors in 30 days during the pandemic. So we did 30 interviews in 30 days talking to just people that we looked up to or thought were interesting and like their scare acting techniques and all that. So remind me to get you all of this info because it'll be good for you.
Katie Jo (01:18:30.502)
That would be wonderful, because that in and of itself could be an experiment. Like, you can do content analysis on what people are saying, find patterns, find all sorts of different... I am loving this conversation. Thank you so much, I'm learning so much.
Jared Howell (01:18:45.276)
Yeah, no problem.
So, and if you have any questions, let me know or if you need, if you needed, like I said, I've got ends for everywhere, even with just the Halloween parade or like if you need to post up at a haunt or anything, let me know. I can get you in contact with people that I think would love to do that, especially, I'll keep saying it, American Horoplex, that's the place to study right now. It's the best haunt in the city. And there also, like Travis is the owner. He's...
He's carny trash like me. He's more Connie trust in me. He studied under an old grifter. So he's just his ideas are nuts. So they bought an old movie theater was like their first haunted house and they would do shit like popcorn scents and like all sorts of stuff in there. Because I just remember somebody being like, is this place haunted? I smell popcorn.
And they would be like, yeah, yeah. It's like, it was just stupid shit like that. Just being goofy. Nothing like no harm. But it was, I don't know. They're just they're intro. They're an interesting group of people. And they also had to. They had to low tech it for a long time because they didn't have a huge budget, so they really put like. The real work in so and that's another magician term for this is how you really do it, because we're.
I'm peeling back the curtain too far, but we say the real work because a lot of magicians share their secrets in books, but they don't give the whole thing away. And then later they'll be like, yeah, here's the real work. then like, so the way I taught it is not how I actually do it. so it's kind of the same thing there where they had to tough it out so long that they actually became innovative being kind of a low budget on so.
Katie Jo (01:20:37.572)
So can I, I know we're like probably at time or way past time, but can I ask maybe an intersectional question between haunted houses and paranormal? How often, cause like one of the theories is that it's kind of like the Monsters Inc theory where like, yeah, scariness feeds whatever haunted is or haunting it is.
Jared Howell (01:20:50.165)
Sure.
Katie Jo (01:21:02.428)
But so does laughter. like goofing around you're going to get more EVPs when you're like goofing around. Or more paranormal activity when people are producing a lot of any emotion. How often have you either experienced or heard about someone having a real paranormal experience while at a haunted attraction?
Do those worlds cross much?
Jared Howell (01:21:34.762)
Yeah, in almost a manufactured way though. So I think we've sort of talked about this. I'm trying to decide if I want to.
edit this out and just tell you for your research or talk about it discreetly. So I worked at a haunted house in the early 2000s and we faked a haunting for a TV show. And I'm so afraid I'm going to get shit from magicians for being a fake psychic and also the paranormal crowd for like, you faked a haunting, you're trash. Yeah, I did.
Katie Jo (01:21:47.666)
Thank
Katie Jo (01:22:13.316)
I mean, people know it.
Jared Howell (01:22:15.05)
But I'm coming clean. I'm coming clean. And that's also why I want to help you not get fooled. But by doing that, we could call it amping up the kids, right? We could call it like amping up the paranormal investigators. Really the paranormal investigators come in first. And then I think, so let me back this statement up. So.
Katie Jo (01:22:18.482)
We're going to wait.
Jared Howell (01:22:41.92)
We had a local paranormal team come into our haunted house to investigate. This only happened because we sold the bullshit story that it was a real haunted location. It was not, it was the basement of a print company. Like use your common sense. But we sold that it used to be a real thing. And people would come in and they would be like, it was just the rule, it was kayfabe.
like, is this place this is where the morgue was and we're like, yeah. And the. So people were already hyping themselves up and then the owner is kind of where. I get some of my shadier aspects of my career because he was just like, sure, paranormal investigators, if they find something, who knows? That was just his thing. Let him play in the basement. If they find something, it'll be cool.
Katie Jo (01:23:14.45)
Ha
Jared Howell (01:23:39.085)
And it also just having them there adds to credibility. So we did that. And then the kids started hyping themselves up a bit. And then we started fucking with the kids because there's this big misconception that haunted houses have lots of trap doors and lots of like secret hallways and places. They do not, but this one did. So like it's the only haunted house I've ever.
been in that's truly like that too. Like where I could get anywhere. Like we, we still joke that like that's where I'm going in the zombie apocalypse. Cause I can just Rambo the shit out of anything in that building if the wall pattern is still the same. I don't know if it is now, but it's, yeah. So we would go through secret tunnels and stuff that not even, cause we're managers. knew where all, all the doors were.
so we could get in the back and do all sorts of stuff to mess with people. And that makes it bigger and then weird stuff started happening. So the only weird thing I ever actually saw down there myself was it was a cement wall, because we're in a basement and there was a clock hanging on the wall. And we were talking about something and I literally think I made a comment about like making fun of the kids that were scared of the ghosts and then a clock.
like flew diagonally down off the wall. Like it didn't just like fall, it flew. So there's, yeah, I think there's, and this is kind of what I'm super into too, because...
Katie Jo (01:25:15.442)
Hmm.
Jared Howell (01:25:25.824)
Yeah, I'm reading Trickster and the Paranormal right now. I don't know if you're familiar with that book, but it's kind of about boundaries and like how lack of boundaries or blurring the line between reality can entice the trickster kind of energy and in that vibe. So I really love that, especially for where I'm at.
Katie Jo (01:25:31.154)
Mm-mm.
Katie Jo (01:25:45.959)
Yeah.
Jared Howell (01:25:53.345)
But yeah, I think that's probably my first real experience with that thing of like hyping a bunch of people up and it sort of becoming its own thing.
Katie Jo (01:26:03.59)
Maybe we should just get together as a friend group and get real hype and do weird shit and have it just be us and see if something happens.
Jared Howell (01:26:13.268)
Yeah, so I'd like to do the mediums or something similar outside of October because I was thinking about that like this week actually about how that was kind of the goal for me was to get everybody hyped up and in a space and to see if something spooky could happen. But then we were also dog shit tired because it's October that like by the time the investigations happened, it was just like, have fun kids. I'm going to sit in this chair.
Katie Jo (01:26:32.836)
I hope you were.
Katie Jo (01:26:39.729)
Yeah.
Jared Howell (01:26:42.558)
So yeah, I would like to do some shit like that and see what we can get going. I do think that you need an unknown element. This is just me talking out of my ass right now. But anytime that kind of stuff has happened to me, it's been with somebody I don't know that doesn't know me that doesn't know the situation. So I feel like. Yeah.
Katie Jo (01:27:05.148)
So bring in someone. To someone it's just a girl's night.
Jared Howell (01:27:11.348)
Yeah, absolutely. Because I think you need that person to kind of like get spooked. And that's when they feed. They really feed the energy. I think it's like that kind of a thing.
Katie Jo (01:27:25.498)
Makes me think of Tony from the Odd Fellows. He really misses you by the way. He was like, if you ever want to come back, you can come back.
Jared Howell (01:27:33.292)
Oh, I need to pay my application fee. Damn it. Somebody like Heath reached out to me and was like, you should do this. I was like, I will. then. October, so, yeah, no, I'll come back, but.
Katie Jo (01:27:34.962)
What the?
Katie Jo (01:27:44.562)
Yes. And I told everybody, was like, listen, like October is an off limits month. Like I'm not going to be around. none of the people I know we're going to be around. Like we love it, but my God, leave us alone.
Jared Howell (01:28:00.66)
Same, same. But yeah, thanks for talking to me. I appreciate it. Where, like, just so I have an audio recording of it too, where can everybody find you in Boo 812?
Katie Jo (01:28:16.528)
So, Boo812.org is our website. I am not very good at our social medias. Kristin, Courtney, and I all have individual social media presences outside of the at Boo812.underscore502. And my personal one is at Kajogles, which is K-A-J-O-G-L-E-S. Awesome.
Jared Howell (01:28:41.032)
Awesome. Well, go follow Katie. She's doing some cool shit and I'm going to keep that up. I'm going to say y'all like I'm from Kentucky because I am my Southern is going to come out at the end of every episode. So go follow Katie and Boo812. They're doing some cool things, especially we didn't even talk about this, but you guys just like revolutionized haunted tours, right? Do you have a quick do you have a quick second? I'm going to post that like like
Katie Jo (01:29:03.282)
A little bit,
Katie Jo (01:29:08.539)
Yeah.
Jared Howell (01:29:09.376)
Can you talk about that for just like two minutes and then I'll stop torturing you and let you go?
Katie Jo (01:29:14.064)
Yeah, so as part of my MBA journey, bachelor's in communication, MBA is business, and now I'm in a dual MA and PhD program in sociology, but as part of my MBA program.
I studied paranormal edutainment and its impact on communities. And so since I did that and published basically a thesis work out of it, I started partnering with Southern Indiana Tourism.
We had been leading in-person paranormal tours for like the last 10 years in Jeffersonville. Every single one of them sold out. But now that we have gotten more developed in our lives, like people have kids, people are writing books, people are out doing all sorts of different things. Like we figured it would be easier and more accessible to the community if we did an audio video tour of downtown Jeffersonville, which has
nine different haunts, nine different haunted locations that gave us permission to talk about them. I will say I know that there are far more hauntings in Jeffersonville than the stops on the tour, but we dive real deep into the history. We partnered with the Historical Society for the information and then like Jeffersonville is just crazy and scary and weird and like they lost a whole cemetery. Who loses?
whole cemetery and then build apartments on top of it.
Jared Howell (01:30:49.356)
Oh, I gotta get in those. That's crazy. I've never said it out loud like that or heard it said out loud, but yeah, they did do that. My grandpa was murdered down there too. So go take that tour. Maybe you can talk to my grandpa. So, well, cool. Yeah, I love it. Everybody follow Katie. Katie, thanks so much for coming on. I appreciate you so much for taking your time. I know you're busy, so I will, I'm gonna stop recording.
Katie Jo (01:31:01.926)
Yeah, like a block away from...
Let's do it!
