Episode 1: Courtney Block

Summary

Keywords

paranormal, libraries, ghost stories, research, Courtney Block, haunted libraries, ESP, academic journey, spiritualism, citizen science

Summary

In this engaging conversation, Jared Howell speaks with librarian and author Courtney Block about her journey into the paranormal, her academic career, and the unique role libraries play in paranormal research. They explore the comfort found in the paranormal, the influence of religious backgrounds, and the importance of citizen science. Courtney shares spooky stories from libraries and discusses the intersection of gender and the paranormal, emphasizing the need for collaboration between magicians and researchers in understanding these phenomena.

Takeaways

Courtney Block's journey into the paranormal began with her love for spooky stories.

Libraries serve as safe spaces for all, including the unhoused.

The paranormal can feel familiar and comforting to those with anxiety.

Courtney's academic journey led her to write about the history of paranormal research.

The importance of libraries in preserving and sharing knowledge is paramount.

Spooky stories from libraries often reflect the experiences of patrons and staff.

The intersection of gender and the paranormal reveals historical patterns in spiritualism.

Researching the paranormal can empower citizen scientists to explore their curiosities.

Libraries are inherently haunting spaces due to their rich histories and the energy of books.

Collaboration between magicians and researchers can bridge gaps in understanding the paranormal.

TRanscript

Jared Howell (00:03)

All right, hey everybody, we are here with my friend and ⁓ librarian slash author Courtney Block, the author of the Encyclopedia of Parapsychology and Researching the Paranormal and an upcoming banger Inside the World's Haunted Libraries, which I'm actually really excited about. was watching your talk. You live streamed your talk at Jeffersonville Public Library here in southern Indiana and.

Courtney Block (00:29)

Yes.

Jared Howell (00:31)

I kind of grew up in that building with my grandma. We would go there all the time. So it was cool to see you give a talk there and also tell a spooky story about it. So I'm really hyped.

Courtney Block (00:43)

I am hyped too. I'm hyped to be here. I'm hyped for this this journey that you're starting here with with doing this and Yeah, that's immediately my brain is like already going a million places just based on what you said about the memories that you have of libraries and like that particular building and I'm excited to see what we get into

Jared Howell (01:04)

Yeah, yeah, so I'm gonna back way up before we get into haunted libraries. We'll probably kind of end on that note, but how I so I know you're a librarian When did the paranormal enter your world? Is that like early on like we haven't really talked about your your paranormal origin story yet So I'm curious to see like how you got into Into this field and how Courtney becomes an author and all that fun stuff

So can you give us a brief overview of how you got into this?

Courtney Block (01:37)

Yes, I can. ⁓ The Paranormal has always been a fixture in my life. Probably it's a similar origin story for so many of us. ⁓ I've always read spooky books. ⁓ One of the earliest books that I have like this memory of reading was a book about the haunted United Kingdom. And it talked about like the hauntings at the Tower of London and the legend of the Loch Ness Monster.

And I just couldn't consume enough spooky stories. And of course, scary stories to tell in the dark was a favorite of mine, goosebumps. And I think a lot of it was also really informed by the openness of discussions of the paranormal in my family, especially with like my mom and my grandma, actually both grandmas. And yeah, I haven't...

Unlike some others though, it wasn't set off because of any particular incident or experience that I had. It was just always being that kid who liked to read the weirdest, spookiest stuff she could find.

I stopped being able to hear you.

Jared Howell (02:57)

How about now? I muted myself on accident. So a classic Zoom call. So as I've been on this journey, I have been unlocking like new memories and then like seeing things where I'm like, where did I first see this? And my introduction to the paranormal as I told it, I recorded like a short intro episode. That's just me talking to kind of set the stage for this.

Courtney Block (02:58)

Yeah, I can hear you.

Jared Howell (03:25)

I mentioned my mom had recorded a David Copperfield special called Unknown Forces, which was his like spooky, he does a spirit cabinet routine, which is what the Victorian spiritualists, like the stage mediums would do. And that's like one of my intros. But the other thing that I forgot about was, and I spent like all day Googling this yesterday, so I found it, but it was ⁓ my elementary school library had,

time life mysteries of the unknown, like the whole set. And I would read the alien encounters one all the time. And so I had like a vivid image of like that page with the illustration of the men in black and all that stuff. I do, it was kind of fun to like see how much books play a role in people getting into this stuff. And yeah, even to a point like,

I felt like, I remember thinking I was weird as a kid, because when the Men in Black movie came out, I was like, but they're like bad guys. I didn't like, it was just weird to me. So.

Courtney Block (04:26)

Yeah.

Yeah, that's cool.

You were like, Hey, wait a minute. This is this. These are not the men in black that I remember from the time life stories. yeah, I have that same experience with, especially scary stories to tell in the dark, just the iconic art that is in those and just being not ever really being scared by any of it. Just being like, this is amazing. I want more.

just all the spooky stories that I could get.

Jared Howell (05:04)

That's awesome. do you ever since I feel like kids my age that were reading that when I when I first discovered scary stories to tell in the dark, we're kind of scared of it. So have you been are you pretty like are you pretty brave as a person? Do get scared on investigations or like doing any of the stuff you do with Boo 812 or any of the overnight like kind of like paranormal convention stuff you do or anything like that?

Courtney Block (05:35)

This is such a fascinating question and my mind is going a million places with it. think that, ⁓ I think in some ways in my life, there's a lot of things that I'm afraid of, but ⁓ the paranormal isn't one of them. And so in that context, in ⁓ the investigations that we go on and the places that we go to, ⁓

No, I don't usually feel ⁓ scared. There's always a little subtext of maybe like a little bit of trepidation that's kind of rooted in like being scared. But that I think is just normal because you're in this, you know, sort of ⁓ environment where these strange things have happened. And so like there's there's always like a little bit, but it's more I think it's more thrilling. And maybe even thrilling isn't the right word.

I talk a lot about, ⁓ I've been actually musing about this question, kind of a question related to the one that you just asked for a while, about why the paranormal feels so familiar to me and why it feels so nostalgic and why it actually often feels quite cozy and comforting ⁓ versus, you know, other...

Completely non frightening scenarios in life. Like I don't know going to the grocery ⁓ Yeah, I think it's ⁓ I Mean we can you know, maybe work our way into this ⁓ but I think it's because ⁓

Jared Howell (07:08)

Yeah.

Courtney Block (07:22)

Yeah, I think maybe it's just because of always having an interest in the paranormal and so it's always felt like a familiar kind of topic but more so I think going back to how I first started answering this where I was like, yeah sure I'm scared of a lot of things. I have pretty bad anxiety and I think that the paranormal

in a way for me feels really familiar because my anxiety makes me feel not really entirely there a lot and what is what is a ghost or what is a ghostly thing other than something that's not really here.

And so it feels so intimately familiar to me. And it's actually something that I remind myself when I'm having like a really intense anxiety day or, you know, the anxiety brain sort of goes on its little journeys and spirals that it goes on. And I tell myself often like to calm myself down. I'm just like, you know what? It's okay because the ghosts are there when you're not here. And, ⁓

I don't know if any of that made sense.

Jared Howell (08:34)

No, it definitely, I think it makes some sense. I it's interesting. Actually, I had another thought, sorry. Do you have any kind of religious background? I'm gonna start asking this question to people that aren't afraid of the paranormal versus are, because I have a strong religious background and it took me probably until like this year or last year before I wasn't afraid of the paranormal anymore.

Courtney Block (08:48)

Yeah. Yeah.

I love this question. It's also interesting because it's something I've been thinking about recently as well. And I had no idea what you were going to ask me, but yeah, I was raised Catholic. you know, so it's always been, I don't necessarily practice it anymore.

But even saying that isn't quite authentic because when I travel I still throw in ⁓ like a saint's, you know, like a card like in my in

know, luggage. And I carry like, I think it's Saint Dymphna, the patron saint of anxiety. Like I keep her in like my little makeup and jewelry pouch when I travel. And when I lose things, I'm just like, hey, Saint Anthony, like I gotta find this thing, you know? And I have a lot of, yeah, I think I...

I think that, so I was raised Catholic, yes. And ⁓ I think it does still inform a little bit of certainly like my spiritual worldview, but also ⁓ yeah, like my supernatural worldview as well a little bit.

Jared Howell (10:28)

That's interesting. I actually, think Catholics are probably a little bit more open. feel like there's a lot, cause I grew up Southern Baptist. There's a lot of, not to like make this like all of a sudden super religious, but there's a lot of ⁓ what I would call magic and Catholicism. Like, ⁓ and you can kind of trace that history of them interloping these practices. And that's where.

Courtney Block (10:48)

Yeah.

Jared Howell (10:56)

the saints kind of enter because we couldn't stop the pagans, the heathens from doing this thing. So, but that's really just kind of St. Michael's. So why don't they? Yeah. So it's, there's a lot of overlap and they're also way less likely to be like, that's demons, right? Like they're like, that's not demons. Get that girl to, to the mental health ward. I think that's, there's just so much of that. It's so weird to me that the Southern like Baptist and like other sects of Christianity are more scared of that stuff.

So it makes sense. I also, it's interesting because on my journey, like the last time I was really scared, I didn't know who to talk to about it anymore. And I posted in the Strange Familiars Discord and Tim from Strange Familiars and Brother Richard, if you listen to that podcast, both chimed in and encouraged me to pray to St. Michael and it worked. ⁓

Courtney Block (11:26)

Yeah.

Jared Howell (11:52)

So I'm not, I was never Catholic, but that's become part of my routine. Like in anytime I get a little overwhelmed or anything. So it's kind of interesting how.

fluid we can be, guess is what I'm trying to say.

Courtney Block (12:07)

Yes,

I love that. Thanks for sharing that about yourself. I ⁓ think it's all a very fluid thing. I kind of take what resonates and leave the rest. And don't get me wrong, man, there's certain things that, why I don't necessarily call myself Catholic anymore. There's certain things that I really don't get down with. ⁓ But. ⁓

you know, but that the ritualistic aspect of, yeah, this notion of at its very core, even if you wanna take the religious connotation out of it, just at its core, this idea that there are like larger forces in this world that...

you know, can influence the world around us and this idea of, yeah, the magic that is inherent in ritual, I think it absolutely informs, like that Catholic upbringing ⁓ really informs the way that I might engage in spiritual practices nowadays or the way that I might still pray today. ⁓

you know, can often look a little ritualistic and I still find a lot of comfort. There was actually a quote that one of my favorite authors, Ralph Waldo Emerson said, something to the effect of I like the silent church ⁓ before the service better than any preaching. And there's still a lot of comfort that I feel from just like sitting.

in a church, ⁓ not during any service or anything, just like sitting in there. I think it's a very nostalgic feeling. I think it's also connected to my practice of, practice is maybe too formal of a word to talk about anything that I currently do, but ⁓ I feel very strongly connected with my ancestors. think if anything, I engage in like ancestor magic. That's what a lot of my...

kind of prayer and practice is rooted in. And so I think it's also when I'm in that space, it's also because my family was all Catholic too. So it feels a little magical.

Jared Howell (14:37)

Yeah, that's interesting. All that stuff is new to me, so I'm fascinated by it, because I haven't never done ancestor veneration, and my path is very non-linear, Southern Baptist, worship leader, youth minister kind of guy, to atheist, to agnostic, to playing with everything. So I didn't really discover that until I got into... It is hard for me to talk about because I'm a...

bald white guy, but I got into Norse paganism for a second and not racist. I just want to clarify that to anyone listening, ⁓ which is what a racist would say, but you'll just have to trust me. and I reading about how they kind of did that as well, like historically. So I started to do it because of that. And then through other means, Catholicism, I realized they kind of do that as well. So, and it's been, it's been crazy. Like,

Courtney Block (15:32)

Absolutely.

Jared Howell (15:35)

⁓ how comforting it is.

Courtney Block (15:37)

Yes,

I love that. I think you put it better when I said I take what resonates and leave the rest. ⁓ And I also really love, I think, something from Catholicism that I...

that I enjoy with the saints and everything is the veneration of, you know, women in a way through, you know, sainthood and ⁓ through, you know, the iconography of Mary. I feel ⁓ I often feel much more connected, you know, to the female figures ⁓ in certainly in that faith system than any others. ⁓

But yeah, I think also too that, like I'm glad that I was raised religious. Even though I wouldn't necessarily call myself a practicing anything really, because it made me open to ⁓ just the topic and phenomenon of religion in general. ⁓ And it's made me curious about... ⁓

you know, the world and faith systems and how it's also that curiosity has enabled me to see the way the similarities and the ways that some of them do intersect. ⁓ And I don't know. And also to Catholicism is just real. It's real spooky, right? With like it's, you know, concepts of angels and ⁓ miracles. And I don't know. I remember my grandma, one of my grandmas had this book of ⁓

people's personal experiences with angels and I remember reading it as a little kid and I was like, my god, this is so spooky. I love it.

Jared Howell (17:35)

That's interesting. So actually I'm going to put a pin in this because I want to come back to women in a second in general. But we got way off topic, which is one of my favorite things about talking to you is I think like the first time we actually hung out, I came to a Boo 812 like haunted tour last year and we immediately like went off in the deep end talking about libraries and then you had to pick, oh, hang on. It's my turn to talk in the tour. Like we were off. So I love

just going off on tangents. So you're into spooky stuff, you're into all this. When does the academic stuff come in for you?

Courtney Block (18:14)

gosh, yes. So I, it's kind of funny because I never pictured myself working in academia. I, from very early on, like my very first official job was just a few weeks before I turned 15, I got a job as a page at the local public library and I really just fell in love with public libraries and the ways that they

create community and support community. And I was like, you can like make a career out of this, you know? And ⁓ I only ever really just wanted to be a librarian. It didn't really matter to me like what form that took necessarily. ⁓ So ⁓ I was at a public library after grad school and just so happened that...

It wasn't an organization that I necessarily saw myself long-term at. And so I had just been keeping my eyes open for, you know, job postings. And I saw one at Indiana University Southeast for a librarian. And I was like, you know what? I never contemplated going into academia, but I know that I'm not happy where I'm at currently.

⁓ And I have this like feeling that the next step is ready for me to take and so that's how it happened honestly It's not a grand story. It's just how it happened

Jared Howell (19:41)

That's awesome though. So I like just kind of go with the flow, like do what you want. So when do you get like the urge to write an encyclopedia? Like how does that happen? Because we

Courtney Block (19:53)

Yeah. I realized when I said that I was like, okay, but that still doesn't really like answer that question. Or yeah, how do you go from that to... So ⁓ what I really liked about IU Southeast is that it's a small...

relatively small campus and so I think like my academic experiences may be a little different from others who were like at gigantic you know research institutions but the writing my life as a writer began in December like November 2018 November December 2018 I saw a

an email come through a listserv that I had subscribed to that was all about ⁓ scholarship and publishing opportunities for libraries because ⁓ librarians at IU are expected, know, they're faculty members, they're expected to publish and do all of that. And so I was, you know, subscribing and paying attention to opportunities to do that, which was something I was really terrified of because it was new to me. And ⁓

I saw an email come through in which the publisher of my first two books, Roman and Littlefield, they were accepting ideas for their next round of research series. And that time period was... That end of 2018 was kind of rough for me. There was a lot of burnout.

professionally and personally. I had already been in academia for about three years, just over three years at that time. And I just remember seeing this email and thinking to myself, I had this idea to talk about the history of paranormal research. And I just thought to myself that, you know,

I should reply and do that because how amazing would it be to actually be able to write about that and have it be considered work related as part of the scholarship that we're expected to do and engage in. And I sent the email.

Really kind of flippantly just thinking that someone on the other end would just think like that's pretty funny You know, like what a weirdo whatever But then they emailed back and they were like tell us more about this idea. Like what do you mean? Like they were intrigued enough to say tell us more and that

flippant email that I sent eventually ⁓ morphed into a contract for the first book, Researching the Paranormal. And then that book and the relationship I built with my publisher morphed into an opportunity, an invitation to write a second book, The Encyclopedia of Parapsychology, ⁓ which has then morphed into an invitation to write this third book.

Jared Howell (23:08)

That's awesome. And I love that because I don't remember if I did it when you were at the mediums, but I think I probably did during the theater show you saw. But I like to end all my sets kind of gassing the audience up to just go do the thing. Like everybody here has a big aspiration and you're not gonna get it unless you just try. So I love.

⁓ that's like my, my method is to flippantly do things and then immediately be like, ⁓ shit, how am going to find enough people to interview on a podcast to keep this going for a long time, which is what's happening now, but here we are. So I'm just going, I think that's, that's just how we get started. So I love, I love that too. ⁓ which is also part of the naming convention for this. I feel like there's a lot of liminality there to just be like, we'll figure it out. Let's.

Courtney Block (23:49)

Yeah.

Jared Howell (24:05)

Just get stuck.

Courtney Block (24:06)

Yeah, man, I love how you put that and absolutely I feel the same way about ⁓ when people ask me this question, like how did your writing journey begin? ⁓ I feel similar to the way that you described, you know, ending your shows and because it's an opportunity for me to remind people, hey, just shoot your shot. Like I didn't think that anything would come of that. I was just...

not having a great season and was like hey I love ghosts and I know how to research things and what if I combined them and you know I just sent it out there and then yeah I had that moment where I was like now I've got to write a book.

Jared Howell (24:52)

Yeah, that's the fun, the fear moment is what I call it, where you're like, you've started and then you have the realization of, ⁓ this is gonna be, I love this, but this is also a lot of work.

Courtney Block (25:05)

Yes, my god, yes, I absolutely

feel that. I get in the habit of, for each of my books, I have made it a habit to take pictures of my writing setups, like my various desks, whether I write, sometimes I write here in this space, in my office, ⁓ at my house, sometimes I write sitting out at my couch, sometimes I'm at, you know, the university writing, and I've made it a habit to take a picture of

my various writing spaces because even though sometimes I get really, ⁓ maybe I'll get irritated because it's real cluttered and messy and chaotic and or I'll get, you know, kind of overwhelmed because of the intense time and energy and work that goes into creating the thing. But then every single time when the thing is done, there's always a little bit of sadness and a little bit of nostalgia for like, I'm

I missed it. I missed being in the thick of creating that thing.

Jared Howell (26:13)

Yeah, absolutely. That's a thing that's hard to explain to people. There's this, I don't talk about this often, but there's this doc, it's not a documentary, it's a magic show. I think it's on Disney plus called in and of itself with this magician, Derek Delgadio. And the whole show is kind of about, it's about his life, but there's a big thread of like people define you by what you do. And

⁓ He has this analogy where it's like a Russian roulette analogy where he's a guy that is called the Ruletista and he goes to a bar every night and he plays Russian roulette and everybody gather around to see if he's gonna off himself. at the end he wraps it up being like, I'm the Ruletista. I get on stage every night and I can't function without this, but it's killing me.

It resonated with me as a performer for so hard, but my girlfriend was like, why is he bitching? He gets to be on stage every night. And so like the disconnect, like it's such a hard thing to talk about, but like I remember quitting music and being like, fuck those guys. I don't want to do it anymore. I'm over it. I hate everything. And then two years in, I was like, I was like a shell of.

Myself like so depressed that i'm not out there doing the thing anymore that I hated when I was doing it that it took everything I had in me. So It's it's an interesting thing that like post nostalgic feelings. Sorry I just took your thought and then put like a big negative energy around it, but ⁓

Courtney Block (27:53)

You didn't

at all. You didn't at all. I really appreciate you like, yeah, sharing that. And I think it also, yeah, that's, it's just part of it. It's part of that process. when you, yeah, when you said that thing about like, you know, I love this, but it's killing me. I mean, yeah, there's, there's how that, you know,

How do I want to put it? There's, I think that's a great way of talking about the inherent payment that your creative product demands of you for it to sort of be born into this world. yeah, like it's gonna take something from you and you just have to, you just have to pay it.

Jared Howell (28:49)

Yeah, which I'm just going to keep saying everything I say, because I feel like it kind of ties back into the name, because that itself is like a give and take. And you kind of always feel stuck in between. I can do this thing. It's going to be a lot of work or I cannot, but it's going to be miserable. All right. So let's get into some spooky stuff, because this is supposed to be a paranormal adjacent podcast. So ⁓ you brought up your books. So I want to dive in. I picked up researching the paranormal and I've been

I ordered it and it's been taking a minute to get here. I realized last night I was like, I'm buy the PDF too. And so I've been reading through that. And one of the things that I wanted to talk about that I thought you might find is a fascinating topic. So you mentioned in either the preface or the first chapter, you talk about, I'm gonna say this wrong probably, but is it Pythia, the Oracle at Delphi?

Courtney Block (29:27)

man.

Jared Howell (29:47)

Yeah, and how ancient Greek society used women as oracles. And then later in the book, you talk about spiritualism being very woman-centric, which it was. And then it got me thinking about all the stuff I studied in Norse, old Norse society. And there was a practice called Sather that was ⁓ like the women oracles, but it was specific to being a woman. So, ⁓

Odin used it and was always kind of jided for it because it was a woman's thing to be an oracle, to be a seer. And it's interesting for me in this space exploring being a reader as a man, because I mean, there's way more women readers than there are men. And it got me thinking last night about how

And I talked to Katie yesterday too, I interviewed Katie Gleesing ⁓ and we kind of touched on this, but it's interesting because I think empathy plays a strong role in psychic ability and ESP. And I've always been very empathetic and very... ⁓

maybe middle of the road, but I've always felt very, don't like, it's a weird society now, so I don't know how to say this politically correct, or if I'm even being politically incorrect, but feelings in my day growing up were feminine, to have feelings, to be deep in your feelings. So I always felt that way. And for that, I always felt more comfortable hanging out with girls, like a lot of my close friends in high school were girls.

and a lot of the people that I really enjoyed talking to were girls. So, and that's still kind of the case now. I feel like I make better friends with women. So it's just an interesting thought. It's me identifying that as like ⁓ a through line. Do you have any thoughts on that of why?

that's the case.

Courtney Block (32:04)

my God, yes. And my mind is just going a million miles a minute. Like when I chat with you, I feel like it always does. And that's like a good thing. ⁓ And first of all, I think it's awesome that women have always been this like safe space. And I feel like that experience is one that many of us, even women, we like, yeah, we get what you're saying. ⁓

Yeah, I think that there... I think that... ⁓ There's so many different things that I'm thinking, but I agree with you. I think that there is an aspect of the ⁓ emotional, ⁓ sort of in tune with your feelings, empathetic side of things does absolutely have a connection to...

the supernatural and the paranormal and the psychical. absolutely think that it's totally connected and you know, historically that's always been like you were saying. ⁓ You know, a lot of those things have been very, you know, heavily.

Societally discourage, know in those sort of toxically masculine ways about like, you know, like Like don't be in your feelings. That's not very man. Like whatever all those, know awful parts of ⁓ So I think that in a way it's always been ⁓ Easier for women to occupy that role to occupy that that spiritual psychical role ⁓ because that those traits were never

necessarily unsafe for us to engage in. ⁓ And I think that they are connected. ⁓ And I think there was something else that I was thinking, yes, especially when you get into the spiritualism era, think that something fascinating that I think about is how the seance room offered this sort of

performative opportunity for women to break out of these traditional patriarchal societal expectations of women and how you're supposed to behave as a woman and what is and isn't appropriate and proper for a woman to do. And yeah, so it's also got me thinking about how I think it's...

There are many ways to be in between and to be liminal, but I also think that perhaps part of that is also because women have often occupied this.

this liminal space of like, I'm just thinking of that like iconic monologue ⁓ in, you know, the Barbie movie where it's like, you know, you have to be like, be sensitive, but don't be too sensitive. And like, you know, be, be assertive, but don't be too assertive. And it's just like, what, what is this space that we're in?

Jared Howell (35:14)

Yeah, I mean ⁓ old society was just so bullshit in a lot of ways to you like one of the things Researched in spiritualism that blew my mind was that to be an actress you were considered like a public woman which was just a semi nice way of saying prostitute or like sex work like So I do know I mean

Definitely. It's even crazy. I think the year spiritualism is discovered with like the Fox sisters is the same year the first women's rights convention in Seneca Falls. So yeah, there's all sorts of stuff like that in there where it's empowerment. So I just found it fascinating that it seems to be that way. And even if you look at some of the old like ⁓ he's got like two D names.

⁓ Is it Douglas Hume? Daniel? Yeah, yeah, so that guy reading accounts of him his story has a very loving kind of feminine undertone to it like him as a person seemed to he was very loving he didn't charge for his seances he would just ask that you put him up for the night and

Courtney Block (36:10)

homeless

Jared Howell (36:35)

He would accept gifts, which is also kind of a con man thing to do. But I do think that in a lot of aspects of him, I remember thinking that too. So it's just kind of interesting. And he's also one of the few that never really got the female mediums that never really just got murdered by skeptics. Like he was never debunked, defrauded. He kind of died a mystery. And so I don't know. It's just fascinating to me that I think

that plays a big key and it's also played a big part for me in doing the seance shows and doing magic because I'm always there are like two big things that I try and say every night I go out which is do the thing you want to do and just fucking love each other which sounds corny but

So, but it's interesting. on the subject of researching the paranormal, because I guess I'm not all the way through the book, clearly, but the purpose of that book is to empower citizen science, which is a term that I hadn't heard until I read that. And when I did, I was like, yeah, that makes so much sense. So what are.

Courtney Block (37:25)

Yeah.

Jared Howell (37:50)

some primary sources that you think are underutilized in paranormal research, both for professionals and for citizens that are just practicing it on the hunt.

Courtney Block (38:03)

Yes, my God, okay. I mean, I've loved every question that you ask, but I'm also just like, give me an opportunity to talk about research and resources and because one of my biggest things and I'm glad that the goal of that book came through to you because yeah, part of writing that was to show.

not just the person in the academy, like the student, you know, that, this topic is valid and your curiosity is valid, but to also show anybody, the general public, that, this information exists and you have ⁓ the ability to access it and you have a right to it too. ⁓

So yes, let me tell you about some of my favorite resources. ⁓ I love the Chronicling America Historic American Newspapers database that is provided freely and openly through the Library of Congress. ⁓ I tell everyone about that. ⁓ It's such an amazing ⁓ newspaper database. It indexes ⁓ newspapers in the United States from like,

Gosh, the late 1600s, early 1700s, all through up until about 1964. And it is such a gold mine of research, especially because in that era, like, I mean, my God, they printed everybody's business, all the details. I mean, we would consider most of it doxing nowadays.

but for the researchers, right? Like you and me. ⁓ Or if you're doing research on, you know, a location because, you know, there's some weird things happening or whatever, you can get so much information about, you know, the people who live there. ⁓ I think also that Sanborn Fire Insurance Maps are really awesome resources ⁓ because you can find them for most cities. They were drawn ⁓

to help with fire insurance purposes in the event that something happened. But on them, you can see details about how cities used to be laid out and buildings, like what used to be in this spot that isn't there now. ⁓ And you can also, it was pretty common for address numbers to change over the years. ⁓ And so what used to be, you know, ⁓

what might currently be a house or a business at 1813 whatever road, 100 years ago was 1113. And so if you can use that information to then search in the newspaper databases because you've got the right, the historical address if you will.

And then the Internet Archive. The Internet Archive is another freely accessible, all of these are freely accessible resources, but the Internet Archive is such an amazing tool to get entire, I mean gosh, just entire works, you know, openly, freely and openly. I went to Half Price Books like a couple weeks ago, and there was this really awesome book about like dowsing and the history of dowsing, but it was, you know, kind of expensive, and I was like...

It was kind of dated like from the 70s maybe and I was like, wonder if I can find this on the internet archive and sure enough it is. The book that was written about the Philip experiment, Conjuring Up Philip is entirely freely accessible on internet archive. ⁓ Yeah, so those are the three that come to mind, but I mean, I could keep talking, but I'll pause here.

Jared Howell (41:52)

No, that's awesome. The Internet Archive is one of my favorite things ever. ⁓ Just for random stuff, ⁓ I can tie this into the paranormal too, but earlier I was talking about looking back at how I got into spooky stuff, and one of the things that hit me early on was that I remember seeing a write-up on the Phoenix Lights in Disney Adventure Magazine.

and I remember that like Timon and Pumbaa were on the front cover in like trench coats and like detective hats and a flashlight. It was like their Halloween issue. And I found that whole like issue on just the some some saint put all of like early 90s Disney Adventure magazine on. So it was kind of fun to go back and see like that same exact photo of the Phoenix lights that got me into it and also introduced me to the X-Files and.

Courtney Block (42:46)

Yes.

Jared Howell (42:46)

all these fun things. So there's a ton of nostalgia on there too.

Courtney Block (42:52)

my God, yes, thank you for bringing that up because sometimes I get like, sometimes I have to remind myself that I'm like, I gotta remind people that all of these databases include much more than just the paranormal. I'm always only ever really talking about them in the scope of the paranormal. But so yes, thank you for mentioning that. ⁓

But yeah, I mean, even for genealogy purposes, my God, like Chronicling America, the databases, the newspaper database can be so valuable. ⁓ Just general historical events, ⁓ know, photos of people and events. I mean, it's just, yeah, sheer nostalgia.

Jared Howell (43:38)

Yeah, that's awesome. how do libraries fit into paranormal research since you're a librarian and there was a clear lack of mentioning libraries there?

Courtney Block (43:49)

Yeah, so I think that I mentioned the first three because they're accessible even from just, you know, you can sit on your couch in your home. You know, you don't even have to make your way physically to a library. But thank you for this opportunity to, yeah, remind people about their libraries in a physical sense. So.

Libraries tie in in so many different ways. I mean first of all if you ⁓ Find a book maybe you listen, you know to this podcast and you hear us talking about various books or whatever and you want to Track down a copy of it go get it from your library ⁓ you know save your money because geez Louise, especially nowadays ⁓ But just in general, you know get

get it from your local library. ⁓ Because not only are you supporting your libraries, are, continue, have always needed support, but especially again, the need for support continues to grow and grow for libraries. So not only are you supporting your library, your...

saving yourself money. You're also enabling perhaps the next person behind you if a library decides to add a certain book to their collection, the next person behind you is going to find it. Librarians can also help you do research if you're just like, hey, I'm looking into ⁓ the history of my house or the history of this, you one building or this person that I heard about. ⁓

I mean, we are literal, degreed information literacy folks, and so we can help you with that. And I used to, I don't get that question so much necessarily at the university library, but at the public library, people would come in and be like, man, some weird stuff is happening in my house. Can you help me dig into the history of it?

⁓ So we can do that and ⁓ there's just so many ways that libraries can help. I'm also too, like a lot of libraries have local history rooms and archives collections that you can also ⁓ dig into if you're wanting to do ⁓ historical research in that way as well.

Jared Howell (46:11)

Yeah, that's awesome. So I admittedly, I didn't know all that about librarians and how research oriented you all were. I had had one bad, just one, it took one bad experience at a library and it wasn't even that bad. It was just a stupid experience. Probably like 2008, I went to the Jeffersonville Public Library to borrow a copy of World War Z, the zombie book by Max Brooks. And I found it in the nonfiction section.

which is where it was put. And so when I returned it, I brought it back to them and I said, hey, just so you know, this was in the non-fiction section and it's like definitely fiction. And the lady looked at me was like, are you sure? And I was like, unless you remember the zombie wars, I'm pretty sure that that's a fiction book. And that's like what cemented.

little librarians as like just somebody's grandma for me. But I didn't know how much like academic work you guys do until I kind of met you and it got me thinking about how underutilized it is and also how kind of like creepy libraries are. So I definitely want to talk about your new book that's going to come out. But Jeffersonville Public Library for me.

I mentioned it earlier, but that was like every weekend I'd stay with one of my grandparents. so when I'd stay with my grandma that lived in Indiana, we would go to the Jeff library. We would rent movies in the basement. And then at the time, the basement also had like kind of an art gallery. So all the rooms had different like framed paintings in them, which my grandma liked because she was a painter. And sometimes they would be like book and movie sales in those rooms and stuff like that. So, but I do remember just being

creeped out by the long hallway on the other side of the video store in the basement of that library. And I've always thought that they were kind of creepy. And they're also liminal in nature. think there's a lot of... Even if you just take it at this one fact that, especially the Jeff library is very much open to just letting homeless people come hang out for the day. Which might turn people off, and if that turns you off, well then fuck you.

I'll say it meanly because I mean, I don't mind. like, I, I remember going to the Indiana research room just last year and there was a guy sitting in there just getting out of the cold and I could tell he felt uncomfortable that I was doing research in there. And I was like, he started to get his things and I was like, dude, you're fine. You just hang out, do your thing. So I, there's literal transient people there. And then they're also just kind of.

In between places. I mean, you've got so much foot traffic. You've got so much history. They're also big built, usually big storied buildings, I think. So is that kind of what played into inspiring you to write this work? Or like, how did you decide you wanted to talk about haunted libraries? Is it just like a kind of a classic, let me mash up the two things I love, like, or?

Courtney Block (49:26)

Yeah, thanks for asking this. I am just taking in everything that you shared. Yeah, first of all, no, no, that wasn't, that was meant positively. Like I love everything that you just shared. And I think that ⁓ it's, I love that you have these memories other than that one weird like World War Z memory. mean, good God. ⁓

But I love that you have these memories of the library and especially connected with your grandma. And I'm glad that you brought up, you know, the fact that, yeah, this is the role that one of the roles that libraries play. There's not many hills that I will die on, but one of them is.

And there's not many things that I wholeheartedly, 100 % believe in. And my answer to both of those are like libraries and the value and the importance of them. like, you know, one of those hills that I'll die on is that they are, there's no other place like them in society. And that's so needed and it's so necessary. And the library is often the place where people go when they don't know where to go. ⁓

you know, hence, you know, you know, unhoused populations, absolutely. ⁓ Being, you know, just one of the many library patrons that, you know, we serve and ⁓ yeah, I can, in my mind, when you were sharing that story, I'm absolutely going through, you know, those, ⁓ you know, some unhoused folks that I, you know, was.

familiar with or got to know in my history as a librarian. yeah, I'm just kind of musing on that. But yes, so the idea for this book is ⁓ it started brewing when I was writing my second book and I really, I describe this.

book as my love letter to libraries and the ghosts within them. ⁓ Because what I really wanted to do was capture the exceptional human experiences of librarians and library workers, ⁓ you know, across the world ⁓ in terms of the strange experiences that they've had in their libraries.

And so it was this desire to highlight library workers' voices, primarily, to highlight these and to capture, like in perpetuity, and I hope that doesn't sound egotistical, but like to capture ⁓ their lived experiences that are not recorded anywhere else and to have this broader discussion about ⁓

What I have been thinking about for years now is a bigger discussion about the inherent nature and qualities of a library that I think make them inherently naturally haunting spaces.

for so many, so many reasons. One of them being ⁓ what you just talked about, the fact that they are places for everybody. They are places where people go when they don't know where else to go. They are places where, at least in the Western world, you cannot go anywhere and sit there all day without buying your right to be there, you know what I mean? Which is messed up, but libraries, don't have to buy.

you know, your ability to just sit there all day if you need to or want to and nobody's going to bother you and ⁓ there's no place. Libraries are liminal entities because they're, they're such a core part of our society. Like everybody generically has good feelings about libraries, but there is nothing, nothing else like the library.

So, bye-bye.

Jared Howell (53:45)

So, I love that. I love all of that. What's your... Cause we're getting a little short on time, but what's your favorite... Can you share like one of your favorite stories from the book? Like what's your favorite, like one of your favorite spooky stories? You don't have to give like that A stories away, like maybe like a B tier story that's really good from your book to encourage everybody to go check it out when it finally releases.

Courtney Block (54:16)

That's a great question because it's so funny when you say that you don't have to release one of your A stories because all of them have such a special place in my heart but I will tell you a really funny one. This was from a library in Australia and

I love that there were actually so many Australian librarians who had like tales to report to me. I was like, this is great. ⁓ And there was one instance where it was closing time and there was an older lady that...

⁓ staff had noticed, multiple staff noticed had gone into the women's bathroom and there's no exit from inside, you know, the women's bathroom. And ⁓ so they just, you know, made note of it in the way that you, you know, make note of who's in the building and where when it's closing time and you're reminding people and just, you know, keeping track and whatnot. And so it's, you know, getting closer and closer to closing time and the lady hasn't emerged yet and they, you know, they're knocking on the door.

and there's no response and so finally they decide you know we're you know gonna gonna go ahead and like you know get the key and open this up and check because they kind of started getting worried maybe she had a medical emergency or something ⁓ and so they open the door they open the door and the bathroom is empty and the part that really got me is that

The librarian who reported this to me said that the only exit, the only way to get out of that bathroom is through the drain. And so we've just taken to calling her the drain lady.

Jared Howell (55:58)

Ha

Courtney Block (56:00)

to that experience, that ghostly moment. ⁓ I love that one. ⁓ There's other examples of things like that, that libraries around the world reported, which is that very similar situation where it's closing time. And it's in all the stories, I think it's usually more than one person has noticed.

patron is you know they're somewhere in the library and they're like they haven't come back yet usually it's a patron who is a regular the drain lady I don't think was a regular I think she was just a random I don't think they'd seen her before ⁓ but in a lot of the stories it's ⁓ a regular patron that they like they know their name they've seen them before they see them regularly and they'll be like they haven't come out of the study room yet

And multiple people notice that they were still in there and then they'll go back in and there's nobody there. And that kind of makes me think of like, you know, the way that we can tend to haunt the world around us, you know, like maybe. And it reminds me too of like the ways, the meaningful. The ways that libraries become meaningful spaces to people as well, and that we often have these positive memories. ⁓

So I don't know, like maybe, I don't know, like maybe those patrons that people saw at closing time were just, you know, thinking like, oh, I've got to get to the library again tomorrow to continue, you know, reading or studying or working on this project or whatever. Maybe they...

just happened to be thinking how they had such a good time the other day at the library or you know whatever or maybe they were reading something they checked out of the library and does that coincide with like the moment in which library workers are like closing the building but they're like hey so-and-so is still here I mean I don't know

Jared Howell (58:01)

No, it's interesting. So I worked at Half Price Books for a little while. ⁓ And that would happen to us pretty frequently. I was a nighttime book buyer. So I worked ⁓ where you go to sell your books.

I just remember my manager, Fred, always was he was a very on top of closing like he would wander and make sure he knew where everybody was so that we could get out of there on time. And there were several times where it would be like some random person we'd never seen before would come in, go to the bathroom and then we'd never see them again. And. Yeah, and I mean, it's not it's not beyond them sneaking past us, but I never thought about it until that story that I was like, because.

I could totally see myself haunting to half price books when I croak. Like I love the bookstore. Like if I'm bored or going insane in my apartment and need to get out, I will just go to every bookstore in the city. most of the time I don't even buy anything. I just wander around and I touch books and I feel books. like check out things I like. ⁓ So it's interesting. I can see that being a thing.

Courtney Block (59:11)

Yeah, and I think, man, you're reminding me of this other, one of my other theories about why I think libraries are inherently haunting spaces. And I think a lot of the same components can apply to book stores, but libraries are, let's consider the books themselves, right? I think it's a...

I think, especially if you've ever been in a library after hours or even just been on the floor by yourself or, I think you can totally feel like the energy of, you know, these books and whatever it is that you've created, whether it's, you know, a song, a painting, a book, the act of creation, I think is a magical process that leaves behind some sort of talking back, circling back to the beginning where it's like,

There's that energetic residue of the thing that it has demanded of the creator, right? And I think that you can feel that echoing and so also with libraries and I

in a way like half-price books, like by and large, a lot of those books are used. They've ⁓ gone through their reader or readers and then ended up on the shelf and library books, you know, somebody checks them out and it spends time with that person, you know, that patron who's read it. And maybe they forgot about it. Maybe it fell under the seat of their car for six months and then they randomly found it. ⁓ But they either love it, they hate it, they forget about it, but either way that book lives with them for a period of time. And then it goes back

on the shelf and the next person checks it out who then and that reader then like pours their energy to it and the cycle continues and continues and continues and I think that ⁓ I don't know I think that can sometimes account for the weird things that happen in libraries but I also wonder too about the just

I kind of wonder if like the drain lady or the people that you would notice at half price who would seemingly disappear, like could they also have been characters in some of these books, you know, that were kind of brought to life by, you know, the energetic imprint of their creator, but also all of the readers who have consumed them.

Jared Howell (1:01:29)

I love that.

There's a whole, there's like a whole thing. ⁓ I'm trying to remember the book, but somebody wrote a book about seeing fictional characters, like in real life. Like I'll try and find the title and put it in the show notes and also send it to you. ⁓ But it's a fascinating topic to like, I don't know, have that like Harvey moment where you look up and there's Bugs Bunny in real life and you're like, what the fuck's happening to me? Am I going nuts? And then it's.

Courtney Block (1:01:42)

Okay. Yeah. Yeah, please.

Jared Howell (1:01:58)

Nobody believes you and I imagine there's a lot of those that nobody tells because they're for sure gonna make you seem like a nutter. But I love that. I don't want to keep you too, too long, but I have two more kind of maybe deep questions for you that I'm going to try and ask everybody. But ⁓ you've been a paranormal researcher. You've been writing for many years now.

What do you believe?

Courtney Block (1:02:33)

this question. ⁓

Wow, that's...

This is something I have also been thinking about more and more, especially over the past couple of years. I think that, hmm, I think in terms of the paranormal, what I believe is that, like it serves as a vehicle for us to have

exceptional human experiences that make us think, just think about the world around us and our role in it, but also which often connect us to other people through those exceptional human experiences. ⁓ That's what I believe. I wholeheartedly, and this might seem kind of weird as somebody who's written

researching the paranormal and the encyclopedia of parapsychology, but I hope that we never get all of the answers. I hope that we never solve it. ⁓ I believe in the mystery of it all and the importance of that mystery and I think contemplate, just even contemplating like if I woke up tomorrow and like

the news was just like, we solved it. Like it being the paranormal or whatever, it just feels like soul sucking, like just drains all the air out of me. But yeah, that's what I believe. I don't know if that made sense. Okay.

Jared Howell (1:04:16)

No, that makes a lot of sense.

while you were saying that, I was thinking that if this show goes on for a while and I get a bunch of these answers, I'm going to make a hall of fame of answers. And that's going to be one in it. Cause I love that. And I think so many people get focused on

like what they believe in, especially like cryptid people, like cryptid heads, like, and I think they kind of lose sight of the meaning behind it all. And I think that's one thing too. I talked with Katie about, I'm not sure when these are going to air in what order, but I love Katie and the fact that she's very much like a scully type, but not outwardly. So she's...

Courtney Block (1:04:40)

Yeah.

Jared Howell (1:05:07)

She's there for the fun of it and she's not going to ruin the fun of the moment. But then she's like, no, I kind of rationalize my way out of everything. Like, and it's fun to me that.

those people exist too. I don't know where I was going with that thought. had a train, but then I started laughing thinking about it. But it's fun to see everybody's take on this answer, because for me, it's just about finding enough evidence to be comforted with the end, right? And I think that I've kind of got enough now to know there's something.

out there that's gonna come for me, but I don't know what it is. I'm just here for the journey and all of that. So, I lied. I said two questions. I have three now, because there was one very specific that I wanted to ask you, because it was in the foreword of your book, the researcher that I should have wrote her name down. There were the forward for researching the paranormal just states as clean as day that ESP is real and

One of my favorite authors, Mitch Horowitz also, I mean, he has a podcast called Ea, it's literally titled ESP is Real. And what do you believe? Because I know you've studied, we didn't even talk about this. There's so much to talk to you about, but you've like, you study the Rhein Lab, you've uncovered a love story there that's super interesting we're gonna have to talk about. There's all sorts of cool stuff, but you've been in the deep end of this academic research. And I mean like,

the deep end guys, like at the archives looking at physical papers on parapsychology and ESP research and all this stuff, what do you think? Cause I think the stats like I can see how the average person that's average at math doesn't grasp the value and the small statistics we have on just like Ryan's lab. But for me, it's pretty compelling.

Courtney Block (1:07:18)

Yeah, I believe that, like I'm convinced of the existence and the verified, the scientifically verified existence of the psychical, the weird, the paranormal, whatever you want to call it.

I'm convinced. Now, I'm convinced that it exists. ⁓ don't know, and that's about as sort of far as I can, none of us really know like what, you know, it is or how exactly it happens. But I am convinced that we have shown, the scientific community has shown that this is a reality of this world, that weird things happen.

strange, psychical things happen.

I it has been shown scientifically and I think also sociologically these experiences like eyewitness testimonies and personal experiences that can never inherently never be like clinically scientifically like stamp of approval. ⁓ That's important too. ⁓ And I just find it

I am wholly uninterested in being the person who dismisses the millennia of human experience of things like hauntings and ghost stories and whatever with just like, well, we can't prove it. And so just dismissively sweep it to the side. think I also believe that

paranormal is such an intimately like interconnected part of the human experience. ⁓ And ⁓ yeah, so I kind of lost my train of thought. yes. I, some of the, I know like some of the main arguments against ⁓ the scientific study of, let's say,

you know, parapsychological related research is that the statistical, ⁓ the statistically significant results that they've gotten are often, ⁓ not always, but often small, like they exist.

it's a statistically significant result, but maybe it's a little small. So then people sometimes will dismiss it just because of that. And it's like, well, okay, but the statistics are sound and the statistics are there and like the math is correct and the study, you know, there's nothing wrong with their methodology and you're just dismissing it because you're like, well, yeah, but it's a small result. That just always seems kind of weird to me. ⁓

But there's also this notion of the problem of replication, which is, I think, perhaps a an argument that has a little more like feet than that other sort of small statistically significant result. ⁓ Because, you know, the goal, at least with scientific study, is the ability to have it replicated, right? But there's this is a huge discussion in

throughout the history of the parapsychological study is that there's something ⁓ perhaps inherently non-conducive to the replication of these phenomena ⁓ that does kind of make it difficult to you know prove its worth I think in the academic arena but I think it has, I think it has proven its worth. ⁓

I think that there will always be this tension about the worth of the pursuit in the scientific way because that tension was there at the very beginning. Like psychology as like this nascent field of study was coming up at the same time as, you know, Psychical Science and Psychical Research. And there were people who, you know, felt that like Psychical Studies were a natural sub-component of psychology. And then there were diehards who were like,

Like, we're trying to get people to take psychology serious. Like, get out of here with your, you know, psychical stuff. Like, what are you doing? That tension was there from the beginning and it has never left. I don't think it'll ever leave, but I mean, I'm convinced that we have shown. We, I mean, I'm not a parapsychologist, but ⁓ I think that, you know, they have, I think they've shown that it exists.

Jared Howell (1:12:01)

I have two thoughts over everything you just said ⁓ and one leads into the next question, but real quick for listeners and you. I have this story I tell sometimes of seance shows I did last year where I was doing my magic thing and giving readings and this girl was asking about her grandpa in general and she didn't write this down. We hadn't talked about it, but I kept getting an image of a wooden table.

And I said, does that mean anything to you? And she said, yeah, my grandpa was a woodcrafter and he made, he handmade a table. And then I felt overwhelmed with like gratitude. And I was like, I think he's happy you're hanging onto it. But what if she sent me that thought? That was the thought I had, like talking about ESP. And I wonder how much of mediumship could be that. ⁓ And then.

The other thought I had, which leads into the question, is I feel like a lot of the people that try and recreate the steps though are skeptics and they don't want it to happen. So that argument translates to the other side too, because they're always like, well, the researchers want to believe. They want to believe and because of that, it's, of course they're going to find evidence. But the same is true if you don't want to believe. You're going to disprove everything and rationalize everything. And

I think this is also where magicians have done more damage to research than anybody because they were so vicious about it. ⁓ Especially the Amazing Randy and...

his take down on that lab ⁓ with Banachek. can't remember the name of the lab, my brain's farting, but it's... I'm trying to ask, like, I guess part of one of my goals, which seems lofty, and I'm hesitant to say it out loud, even starting this, is to bridge that gap between magicians and research, because I'm convinced that magicians know more about deception than any researcher will ever know, and...

I was talking to a parapsychologist about Ted Sirius and he actually, he had receipts for how hard Dr. Eisenbud worked to disprove Ted and that actually made me comforted and I think magicians have the wrong idea. I still think we could be helpful because there's a lot in that study where I'm like, I'd have to be there because

I know researchers saying there's no way, there's no way. And I'm like, there's way. Like we do it all the time. Like collusion is the easiest method. There are still people in, it's so easy that people in audience will still be like, well, just everybody's in on it. And I'm like, except for you, you think I went that far to get a hundred people in this theater to like, bit you. Like it's, and it seems crazy, but it's possible. There's so much we can do. ⁓

to create those situations. So I guess my question is, is that a gap that can still be bridged or is the damage done? Because there's not a lot of like, psychical research still happening. And if so, how do you think people that are versed in deception could help psychical research if we wanted to?

That's like a deep question.

Courtney Block (1:15:29)

Yeah,

no, it's a good question. I, well, I do think that there is, ⁓ that there is still a very good deal of parapsychological research being done. ⁓ I don't think, yeah, maybe, I think it has shifted certainly ⁓ from, you know, some of the early like theories and... ⁓

things that we're focused on. But I think it can. I mean, if it can't be completely bridged, I certainly think that progress can be made. Like that was how I felt like when you first asked that. Like I absolutely think it's worth it. It's a worthy endeavor. do think progress can be made.

And I think that it's, I think that it highlights the importance through like what you're doing with ⁓ connecting with that researcher. ⁓ And also the things that you're talking about. I think it's why it's important to have people.

on all sides of the sort of, you know, angle, if you will, not to use the word angle, but like I think having people who like magicians who can see certain things that another person cannot is important to like have all of those perspectives at the table.

because, and I think this is a symptom of like any, you know, any field of study. Like you get siloed and if you only engage with people in your field of study, well, you're only ever going to see the things that you.

see in your field of study that is taught, that is believed, that is, you know, experienced, you know, that... So I think that, yeah, I think it's worth it. I progress can be made. I think progress has been made in general. Like, if you consider... ⁓ the tension, like how tense, like the beginnings of, you know, the...

Yeah, I don't just the history of like, Psychical science gaining its footing and then how it's morphed into, you know, parapsychology nowadays and it's still very much a struggle, but I definitely think progress has been made. yeah.

Jared Howell (1:18:06)

Cool, thank you so much. So yeah, thanks for talking to me and coming on. I appreciate your time so much. ⁓ Where can everybody find you on the web? Where can we buy your books? And when does your next book come out?

Courtney Block (1:18:20)

Thanks, yeah. Well, thanks for having me. This has been amazing. I am like super excited for your project and the places that you're gonna go with this. People can find me. I'm most active on Instagram at liminal.librarian. You can get my books through the library. That's what I'll urge people to get my book.

My third book comes out in April of 2026. So the pre-order link is available with my publisher Bloomsbury. So you can just Google, you know, Bloomsbury Courtney Block and you can find all of my books. But you can also ask your library to purchase a copy for you. yeah, ⁓ yeah.

Jared Howell (1:19:13)

Well Courtney, thanks so much for being here. I appreciate you so much and everybody go follow Courtney on the socials and buy our books or ask your library. It helps everybody.

Courtney Block (1:19:17)

Yeah, thanks.

It does.

Episode 2 - Katie Glesing - Vampires, Academy, & Deviant Leisure

Jared Howell (00:42.584)

OK, guys. So we've got Katie Joe Gleesing with us. She is. What's your title? founder and director, I guess. Is that your title for Boo 812?

Katie Jo (01:00.956)

Found, yes, yeah, founder and director.

Jared Howell (01:05.974)

So, Katie founded Boo812, which has been working with me on some spooky Halloween entertainment over the, I guess, kind of we've been talking and working on this thing for the last year. So, and I met you guys, when was BooFest? I met you guys like two years ago, I guess.

Katie Jo (01:24.112)

That would have been last July and we started planning for that in like December of the previous year. So 2023?

Jared Howell (01:34.671)

Time is a blur, it's crazy. Yeah, so I mean, just a couple of years we've been working together on different things. So Boo 812 is something, you guys check a lot of boxes. If you had to put it into words, what would you say like, what's the chief definite aim of Boo 812? What do you guys, what's your main focus? And then what are some of the other things you all do? Just so everybody knows.

Katie Jo (02:02.31)

Yeah, so on the Indiana State Nonprofit application, we're a cultural nonprofit. And so that means we're dedicated to keeping the creepy culture of Kentuckyana alive, I guess. I like that alliteration a lot. So that's how I've been describing it to people. But we mostly go digging through historical records, find cool stories that we hear from citizens in the community, and then go back it up with whatever we can.

And if we can't back it up, we still tell the story and just say we can't find anything about it.

Jared Howell (02:37.526)

Okay, that's awesome. And then do you guys do, how often do you do like actual investigations anymore? Is that sort of a rarity for you all at this point? Because you guys have been in it for a long time.

Katie Jo (02:51.41)

Yeah, so when we first started, we were probably doing five or six investigations a year back in like 2013, but since we've been Boo812, we've only done two or three in the last, well, okay, I take that back because we do the paranormal investigation classes. And so we did like paranormal investigating at Witches Brew. So are we counting those kinds of events too?

Jared Howell (03:16.888)

I would definitely count witches brew. and then the classes are just, I don't know. So let's back up, explain those classes for everybody that's listening so that everybody's on page with us. You'll explain it better than me.

Katie Jo (03:36.048)

Yeah, so when we first started Boo812, a lot of it was to get out of the rigid scope of academia and bring it to the community. And so we started hosting essentially parapsychology 101 classes for just community people at different places that would host us. So we started with Raven's Roost, which is no longer around. And then we've just kind of partnered with

Oddball. don't really know affectionately woo woo businesses across the, across the area. And so if we had to, if we really had to define the paranormal 101 classes, it's where we give like brief history of parapsychology, say, hey, yes, this is legitimately being studied. It's not like just what you're seeing on TV. It is something that you can actually go home and do. You can buy these.

pieces of equipment on Amazon, on Ghost Stop. And so we let people kind of play around with our equipment, for lack of a better word, and then walk them through how to investigate safely and with friends. I think a lot of people are afraid to do it by themselves. So we provide that community of people.

so they don't have to be so scared.

Jared Howell (04:58.486)

Okay, that's awesome. So I would say those classes sort of count. Because when we did the one in the Sheridan, was it the Sheridan Midwest Boofest? What's that? Yeah, so we're in the middle of just your average like Midwest semi fancy hotel meeting room. And I don't know, I feel like it got pretty spooky for like a hotel above a Hooters like.

Katie Jo (05:10.342)

Yes.

Katie Jo (05:27.184)

Right, right.

Jared Howell (05:27.436)

I was not.

So I'd say those count. But the thing that fascinates me, and I guess I see a lot of people doing it right now, since I guess really since like Hell Year came out, people like I feel like that docu-series, I don't know what to call it, merged communities. Because I feel like before that there were the Ghost Bros and the paranormal TV junkies and then the Bigfoot people were their own thing.

and then their alien guys were a whole other thing and now everything's coming together. So I was surprised, I guess, I don't know why I would have been out of this community for so long if I could say I was ever really in it, but I was surprised when I met you all that we were off into the the weird parapsychology area. So how do you guys transition from being paranormal investigators

to getting into the deep end with parapsychology and like the academic side of things.

Katie Jo (06:37.266)

Yeah, would say, I would say Chris and Courtney and I all have pretty different journeys into how we got into parapsychology. My parents are affectionately weirdos and we would just go take pictures in cemeteries when we were going to like, we would travel to high school football games and my mom would be like, oh, a family member's buried here. Let's go snap some pictures and.

We'd get some weird stuff in those pictures. But in 2013, I took a parapsychology class in my undergrad at IU Southeast.

It completely changed how I saw the paranormal world because I had been watching, you know, ghost hunters, ghost adventures, all the ghost bros on TV, love them. That is not academic research. It could be, it totally could be, but they're not collecting their data sets. but in that parapsychology class, we had half of the class, during the summer was in a classroom where we studied all the different research that's gone in.

like ESP, haunt phenomenon, psychokinesis, and mediumship, just all the literature that's out there very superficially. And then the second half of that class was traveling the east coast of the United States, so going to Virginia, learning about cryptids, going down to New Orleans and learning about hoodoo voodoo vampire culture, all of the above. And then like Savannah, Georgia, their ghost walks, their haunt phenomenon.

there and then we ended at Myrtles Plantation which there are some ethical complications that go into investigating plantations but from there I just kind of like fell in love with the research side of it, stayed with that institute that was already formed and then hopped out and broke into Boo812 in 2024 or 2023 I guess.

Jared Howell (08:43.15)

Awesome, so that's like a lot. What's the weirdest thing you've done on your journey? Have you ever cryptid hunted? Did you hunt the frog man? What'd you do?

Katie Jo (08:57.112)

I have to... okay. This docu-series is probably... it is... the docu-series may or may not come out, but I was invited to spend five days in Cleveland, Ohio in a haunted Airbnb with like ten people who self-identify as psychic vampires. And...

It blew my mind. Like, would I say yes again? Absolutely. Were they all strangers at the time? Definitely. But that was really fun. Getting to get into the psychic vampire community was not something that was ever on my radar until they invited me to come join. And I think they invited me just because I had that academic background too.

Jared Howell (09:48.248)

So, what's a psychic vampire?

Katie Jo (09:52.865)

gosh, I, listen, I am...

I'm gonna butcher it because there are so many different lines of belief in psychic vampirism, but have you seen what we do in the shadows? Colin Robinson. Yes.

Jared Howell (10:10.446)

Of course,

Okay, so they just think they feed off of people's energy. are they like trolls or is it like that or?

Katie Jo (10:21.816)

I would say there's people who are aware that they're psychic vampires and there's people who are not aware that they're psychic vampires. And your Colin Robinsons are the ones who are generally not aware. I feel like we all have them in the office. I've been to like HR conferences where they talk about energy vampires and psychic vampires from an HR perspective. But I've also like the vampires that I spent time with really are more akin to like

Reiki, energy healing, Kigong, where they basically take the energy that is ambiently in a room or feed off of people who are nearby. And there's a whole culture of consent around it. They'll feed off people who are nearby and they'll use that transfer of energy to basically be a conduit to do some sort of transmutation of that energy in their own body and either put it back into another person.

or put it out into the world. So, kind of falls into the energy healing realm for me. The book that we worked off of and one of the celebrities that we worked with was Michelle Bellanger who wrote The Psychic Vampire Codex and really, really gives an in-depth overview into what energy vampires are, psychic vampires.

Prior to doing that, I had actually traveled to France to study vampires and went to the Musée de Van Pierre and spent some time with Jacques Sergent, who is the leading vampire expert, but he's more in the Dracula knows fraught to realm versus the psychic vampire realm. But.

He did say that at one point in time he was lecturing down in New Orleans and a group of people who self-identify as vampires did like stop him and kidnap him after one of his lectures and basically told him, hey, you need to stop talking about this. So.

Katie Jo (12:28.57)

There's a lot to the vampire community that I was completely unaware of and that doesn't tend to appear in the psych or parapsychology textbooks. So that's a lot.

Jared Howell (12:40.31)

I have so many feelings right now. No, no, it's fascinating. So this is like where I get in full blown trouble because there's so much like this. These are the conversations where like skeptic magician Jared takes over and I'm like, what the nerd like that's where I bully Jared comes out. That's what I'm saying is like, my God.

Katie Jo (12:50.93)

Yeah.

Katie Jo (13:02.256)

Yeah.

I mean, you can totally bully them. Like, I regularly am... I mean, listen. Affectionately bullying.

Jared Howell (13:10.51)

I don't wanna play, I wanna be inclusive, I think. But I don't know, I can't buy vampires. There's a limit to my believability. I don't know why, it's kinda fun. Are there any studies on that? Have you guys talked about where we draw the line at all? Because it's interesting to me to think about ghosts, great. Cryptids, maybe, sure. I'm open to the idea.

somewhat like, you know, there's like Goatman, probably not, but Bigfoot? I'm all in. Aliens? Sure. Vampires? Out. Sorry, I'm not buying it.

Katie Jo (13:50.96)

Yeah, right. Well, and I guess it kind of falls under like.

your definition of vampire too. Because there are people who like lean so heavily into it that they do drink each other's blood. Like I met folks who do drink each other's blood. And like they have a whole like health network where they like test their blood, make sure it's safe, make sure it's like clean, make sure no one's got diseases. And then they like exchange drinking blood. And so if we're going by that,

Yes, vampires exist. Do I think that there's some truth to energy healing? I think there is and I think it's the vernacular of vampire that comes with the stigma because not only did they call themselves vampire, already has like you've got Dracula, you've got Nosferatu, like you've got the big bad goth novel baddies in that realm.

But there has been some really cool research on energy healing, on Qigong, on energy manipulation. So I guess I have issue with the wording of vampire and the fact that they have constructed an entire caste system. So there was like, this makes me like, listen, Jared.

I want to separate myself from this a little bit. am telling you what is out there, not necessarily what I believe. But they call themselves warriors, concubines, and priests. And so, and that's their caste system. And that is all self-made, self-regulated. I do not think it's super ethical. I understand that

Katie Jo (15:54.15)

The way they have separated those have to do with their perceived notion of how their energy is being transmuted and how their energy healing works. But to me it falls very close in line with Reiki, but it's almost like...

Katie Jo (16:15.826)

We also got ahold of the vampire at the masquerade and ran with some tarms.

Jared Howell (16:16.258)

Yeah.

Jared Howell (16:20.984)

Yeah, that's like I guess that's my problem with it to you. mean I have problems with reiki to you I think I'm gonna make so many people mad with this podcast now that I'm talking to someone for the first time Because you're the first scheduled interview. I'm gonna make so many people upset I think reiki is bullshit to you, but I like I mean that's the purpose of this podcast hopefully I'll get somebody that practices on here and we'll talk about reiki and See if they can not debate me, but I just want to know I want to know because I've never really talked to anybody but that is

Katie Jo (16:30.482)

I'm here for it. I'm here for it.

Jared Howell (16:50.858)

Insane. don't know. I can't imagine being like, yeah, I'm a concubine like did they wear like Like puff ties were they out there and like ascots and Then they're just not doing themselves any favors

Katie Jo (17:03.493)

Yes. Yes. Oh my gosh, Jared. And my favorite part about this whole thing is like we stayed in the haunted Airbnb. That was really cool. I had a really scary moment in that Airbnb. And I think some of this is also the power of belief. So like if you believe in psychokinesis, I mean, I think there is a lot of potential that we can tap into. However.

like some of the stuff that happened there like we filmed at one spot which was the haunted airbnb super cool amazing spot had some spooky stuff happen we also filmed at someone's house who identifies as a psychic vampire one of the more notable psychic vampires

and they were in a subdivision in their backyard that had a whole labyrinth in it also had their neighbor's child's playground within view so the surrealness of okay we're massive energy healers I've got a whole shrine in my basement this is big dark spooky magic versus okay there's toddlers running around next door we're in suburbia

is mind-blowing.

Jared Howell (18:27.224)

Yeah, I don't you just made me think of this house that was in my one of my friend's old neighborhoods that had they had like the gothic Bars on all the windows and at night they had purple lights in their windows But there were no cars in the driveway You never saw anybody come in or out Like it was the creepiest house of all time and now I'm like were those psychic like were those vampire people? because in

Katie Jo (18:54.342)

There's a lot in the oval.

Jared Howell (18:56.734)

So there was one time we saw their garage door open and there was just a like a white van in it and we were like, it made me think of, have you ever seen the Tom Hanks movie, The Burbs, where he's convinced his neighbors are vampires? That's how I felt. was like, that their kidnapper van? Is that how they murder people? It was weird, but I know, I've actually, I know there's a bunch, so now I'm scared. I'm gonna get, I'm not scared.

Katie Jo (19:09.392)

Yes.

Jared Howell (19:23.502)

I'm not gonna get kidnapped by vampires for a podcast no one's gonna listen to. We're good.

Katie Jo (19:28.336)

Not with that attitude! Listen, if you get kidnapped by vampires, I wanna join you. Call me.

Jared Howell (19:35.859)

Alright, I'll call. yeah, I'll call. So, alright, that was a total sidetrack. Sorry, I couldn't stay on the rails. So, Boo812, we're doing investigations, we're doing the academic stuff. When did the academic side, like, was ghost hunting first for you and then you fell in love with the academic side or vice versa?

Katie Jo (20:04.594)

It kind of...so I would say that ghost hunting was definitely first because I was a big fan of what was on TV. Like, I loved ghost hunters. It was something that my family sat around and watched all the time. Which makes ScareFest all that more surreal. But then when I was able to take a parapsychology class, I was like...

I lived my best life during my undergrad and did not take college seriously at all. I was like, I'm gonna hunt ghosts and I'm gonna go study hyenas in Africa. And I was a communications major. I had no business doing either of those things. So really the passion for like, haunt phenomenon was there.

and the parapsychology class was like the turbo booster that just like ignited it.

Jared Howell (21:04.526)

So on the academic side of things, one thing I want to talk about a lot is just, and we've talked about this sort of in passing as we do events and stuff, but it's a big thing for me as like a sort of skeptic. I don't really call myself a skeptic, I guess, because I'm kind of a believer, but the history of magicians, we've got this long past of

Katie Jo (21:04.666)

Awesome.

Jared Howell (21:32.994)

debunking and defrauding people and psychics and all this stuff. And I think part of the

Side to that is how little magicians know about academic research. So I can't really talk about this because I swore to secrecy, but I talked to a psychical researcher recently, and you know some of this behind the scenes, but about a famous case and we were, I was talking to him about why I can't buy it. And mainly it was because

I know more about deception than you and I wasn't there. Like that's the reason I can't. Cause they're like, did X, Y, Z to debunk this and there's no way you could have done it. And like, there's a way. Like, there's totally a way. And I'm also sworn to secrecy. So I can't tell you that way. Cause it'll dox all magicians everywhere. like there's, but I was also surprised at

He had video of the lead researcher on this case doing debunking and that guy went way farther than I could have imagined that he actually went. Because I think the perception is that all the researchers doing this want to believe and they're all marks and they're all just doing whatever they can to prove it exists and that's not the case. Is that your experience on the academic side of things?

Katie Jo (23:09.924)

It depends on the institution. I will say there are some researchers out there who want to believe so bad. Like, I feel like you have your Mulders and your Skullies and at the end of the day, that's kind of the beauty of the academic research is that you can stack it because we only know what we know at the time. But if someone publishes an article,

in the 1950s and you come back today and are like, hey, here's five different ways I could have made that happen that this researcher didn't account for. We can rerun the study and we can take the exact same methodology that that researcher used and if we get the same conditions but you're able to deceive it, then we just publish basically an amendment to that article saying, hey, yes, this

happened under these conditions, but we didn't consider these conditions. And so I guess that's one of the cool things about science is that it's not static and it stacks and it builds on other bodies of research too.

Jared Howell (24:12.984)

Yeah.

Jared Howell (24:23.566)

So there are some interesting things there. So I guess I can say this. So I was talking with someone about Ted Sirius, which is psychic bellhop, which is my favorite bit in all of history. And if you don't know who Ted Sirius is, he could send what he called thoughtographs. So he would stare into, at the time it would have just been the Polaroid land camera, and whatever he was thinking of would show up on the film when they took the photo. So there are cases like that where

Jared Howell (24:55.84)

I don't like that guy will never exist again. So we can't stack it right. So aren't there and I guess we're kind of maybe past the golden age of like weird shit like that happening or being out there because like I don't know like if.

It's so weird because if there was like John Edwards or somebody we could study him, but it wouldn't, I don't know. And it's the weirder cases that are more compelling, I think for that reason, because we can't go back.

Katie Jo (25:29.456)

Yeah, and they just kind of all fall into this weird little anomaly drawer and we say, here's what happened. Can't explain it, but here's what happened. Have you seen the docuseries Surviving Death on Netflix? No.

Jared Howell (25:47.425)

No, I haven't.

Katie Jo (25:48.718)

Ooh, I highly recommend it because they take scientists from like the Princeton lab, which is called Pair, and then they take people from the Ryan Research Institute, but then they pair it with people who are studying like hospice care and like the similar things that happen as people are like on their way out of this life. And it's...

It's really interdisciplinary with, like, we call it parapsychology, but it's really interdisciplinary in that it touches a little bit of everything. Like, you can't study this without getting into a little bit of physics. You can't study it without getting into a little bit of sociology, which is where I'm at now. You can't study it without getting into, like, my gosh, the quantum people. I don't understand what they're saying, but I love it.

But surviving death does a really good job at breaking that all down to layman language and saying, here's what we're currently researching, here's what has been researched, and here's some ways we're gonna adapt this to the future.

Jared Howell (27:03.47)

That's awesome. I'm gonna check that out. think the, I'm sorry, I've also just been thinking of all the like weird near-death experiences I've had friends have, and also I was a nurse's aide for a long time, so experiencing stuff like firsthand like that is kind of weird too. So do you have a field of study? I'm like all over the place. I need to take notes. So how do you think...

people can better bulletproof their studies to rule out. I guess, let me back up, parapsychology studies aren't a big thing today. Do you have a feeling as to why?

Katie Jo (27:52.036)

So earlier I think I mentioned the file drawer effect and there's a lot of fear among academic researchers that if they publish a study in this field the rest of their studies forever will be deemed like woo-woo.

like it automatically decreases your credibility if you even consider looking in the parapsychology realm. So a lot of people have just kind of strayed away. We didn't know that the phylo-drawer effect would happen until it started happening. I feel like there's also some conspiracy stuff here where people have been told to stop studying in certain directions. And I...

don't want to end up on a list so I don't want to go too far into that. So I think that's led people to kind of study adjacent to parapsychology. So like where I am is like recreational fear and I think as, gosh, recreational fear and horror is fun but like the weird stuff that happens when you're studying the normal stuff

kind of keeps that parapsychological stuff alive. And you can always just put like a little note in your research and be like, hey, this is what we initially started studying, like, anomaly noted, like the two times we did this, we got a voice or like something through itself across the room. And you just like note it. And then you go back to doing whatever else you were doing.

Jared Howell (29:32.909)

That's cool. there's the, I guess the fear of like not being taken seriously. I'm sure that's like big nightmare for researchers, scientists, parapsychologists, all these people. So what do you think?

Katie Jo (29:33.116)

Cut,

Jared Howell (29:52.845)

Created that stigma that it was woo-woo

bullshit. Like, cause it's, I have a theory, but I also have an extremely biased theory. So I'm curious what you guys think as someone that's lived in this world for so long.

Katie Jo (30:11.312)

I think there's a couple of things. I think there's some armchair skeptics who are just diehard diehard skeptics. Like no matter what, an alien could come down, look them in the face and like say hi and they would go, no, I'm hallucinating. Even if they're not. So I feel like there are pseudo skeptics out in the field who publish against this. I feel like magicians like

not being brought in on a lot of these initial experiments that were done back in like from I guess the 40s to today. Like you knowing how to debunk something is extraordinarily valuable and should have input on some of the scientific study. And then I like, just, feel like there is.

There's a conspiracy level to it. I really do. I feel like there is a lot to benefit from not looking in these directions.

Jared Howell (31:17.409)

Yeah, that makes sense. think the magician's thing is what I always, I mean, that's kind of the premise, half the premise to this podcast is that it's like a goal to bridge that gap for me because there's so many amazing Randys, the easiest one to pick on because he destroyed a whole lab. Like he just, he reached out to them and said, hey, I can help you do this. They said, no, thank you. And then he just destroyed them.

like with two kids that just do magic tricks. And then after that, he has his whole foundation and there are still guys in that foundation that immediately.

like change back Wikipedia articles on Rhyne on all these things they're just vicious. It's like their whole life like it makes me think of there's this guy that Moby famously hated because he would find samples electronic music artists used and like then snitch on them to like Sony or whoever so they would get copyright striked and Moby would be like I used like two seconds of that clip you asshole so

Katie Jo (32:06.854)

now.

Katie Jo (32:20.483)

Jared Howell (32:27.339)

That's how I feel about these guys. I feel like they did more damage in those moments on their high horse than they could have done any amount of good. So I do blame us quite a bit for that. I do think maybe we should have been invited, but there's also I know enough magicians to to be like, I would do it for free or very little money if I had to travel. And I also know magicians that would be like, I have three thousand dollars show. I'm not going to go sit in the lab for a month. And yeah, so.

Katie Jo (32:54.096)

Right, right.

Jared Howell (32:56.813)

It's a hard thing. think that's tough. Hopefully we can change that. are there things, because now we've got a lot more people on the fringes, yeah, that are kind of doing research. So, and also, like you said, like they're, feel like the people that are going to find shit are going to be, you know,

Katie Jo (33:11.1)

Right.

Jared Howell (33:24.309)

trying to make up John Smith of Country Redneck Names that's out in like, Paducah, Kentucky with his paranormal research team and they're just podunks in buildings with tape recorders but they find something really fucking good and we're not gonna be able to take it seriously because all the X-Factor, right? So like, what are things that people can do like...

Katie Jo (33:34.556)

Right.

Jared Howell (33:51.63)

you know, average Joe people that just do this for a hobby, what are things they can do to like set themselves up for success? Is there anything or is it always just gonna be shit on?

Katie Jo (34:03.346)

I think there will always be a level of academic skepticism to citizen science. Because unless you have someone who has sat through like empirical research classes, who knows how to like turn something into a lab quality like environment, there's always gonna be a level of skepticism of citizen science.

I don't think that should deter people from playing around though because I think a lot... I mean you can't... gosh. I wanted to say you can't bring a ghost to a lab but like I literally participated in a seance study where at Indiana University Southeast in their lab space we set up monitors on three different rooms

had our middle room be the one where we had a fake seance. We said we're gonna summon this ghost. We know this ghost is fake. But like stuff happened. Like we don't know why stuff happened. So like maybe you can summon a ghost tomorrow. I just think.

I... It's kind of like a fuck around and find out situation. And I think as weird stuff continues to happen,

Katie Jo (35:31.58)

We're just gonna keep throwing our hands up in the air and going, I don't know why it happened, but here are the conditions it happened under. But I really do love how you were talking about like hillbillies in Kentucky because at ScareFest after my talk.

I met somebody that was in a group called Hillbillies into Paranormal Shit and it was hips and so, I love that. There is no reason people should be deterred from playing around ethically because of this academic rigor. I think we can kind of live in harmony and just say, here's where we can help in academia, here's...

There is a level of truth to what you're doing, but we just can't run it through the same protocol.

Jared Howell (36:21.773)

Yeah, so there's an unfairness in the way people are treated and that I was thinking of and I was trying to think of how to like say it. But so like I've been an artist my whole life, graduated high school, hopped in a van, played music, came back, did haunted houses, got tired of that bullshit, now I'm a magician. That's how I've grifted my entire life. I'm not taking seriously unless I make a billion dollars a year by like

most people, right? Like artists don't get taken seriously. And I think there's like a parallel there to kind of like, maybe not, maybe this is a bad parallel. But I guess what I'm trying to say is like hips, right? Like, cool, let's go check them out. Let's support them because that sounds dope. I have no idea if they're good, but they sound awesome. And we're talking about them. So check them out. I think that like, I don't know, it's easy for me to think rednecks are stupid.

Katie Jo (37:10.834)

No idea.

Jared Howell (37:21.705)

Like, I've thought that my whole life. I'm a punk rock kid from the Bible Belt, so I fucking hate rednecks. But it's crazy to me how many times I'll be talking to somebody that I genuinely think, like, bless his heart. Like, this person's a fucking moron. And then I talk about paranormal stuff, or I talk about tarot cards, or I'm talking about something that I think is going to be way above their head. And I kind of smirk and I...

I of hint at what I'm talking about and then they pick up the hint and then they're more fluent in that thing than I could ever have dreamed of because they're very much into it and they're learning at home. So I guess what I'm saying is it's not fair that their accent and the place they live makes them not taken seriously. And it's also as a artsy fartsy kid that's never been to college really, Bible college that doesn't count. But

I mean, I worked at a job for a long time where I was a financial aid counselor and I got laid off because I didn't have a college degree. And I was like, but Becky in the next cube has a college degree in photography, but she gets to stay. Like, I know the same bullshit she knows. Like, there's no difference in education. it sucks that because someone can read a book better than me, they're

Katie Jo (38:33.073)

Right.

Katie Jo (38:45.554)

They probably can't even read the book better than you. Like, like there are barriers to education in the United States, but like...

Like listen, I'm only in a dual master's and PhD program because I work for a university who is paying for the program. Like I would never be able to do this without the privilege of working at that university. So there's a level of privilege there. There's a level of gatekeeping that happens. I think Courtney's a great person to talk to how to get around the academic paywall because you can't look at a lot of these research journals

Unless you have like EBSCO host or a subscription through a university. Like there's a lot you just cannot research which hinders citizen scientists who want to. I will say that's kind of a uniquely United States issue though. Like I've studied paranormal and now...

six countries. So, I mean, and it's taken seriously in a lot more countries than we'd expect. And there's a lot more...

acceptance of it especially in like like I almost got kicked out of Vietnam for bringing my spirit box because it's a digital Ouija board and they take that so seriously that like you leave the dead alone and I mean there's a lot US based that hinders paranormal psychology in general

Jared Howell (40:25.291)

It's interesting that other places take it more seriously than us. think we're kind of like, it's so crazy. America is just a weird ass place to live. I think we're almost liminal in a way because we've built, we like paved the road for a lot of stuff and then are also just so stupid and steadfast about the dumbest shit. So.

Katie Jo (40:25.404)

Thanks.

Katie Jo (40:44.667)

No.

Jared Howell (40:50.901)

Are you, what's your take on things? so this, I guess if I were gonna have to boil this down to a point which I hate to do, it would be about, like the whole pitch is I'm a magician, I'm a tarot reader, I'm in this space where I'm part of two communities that hate each other, I'm in the middle and I'm finding interesting stories with people that are in the paranormal world. And so I'm really exploring skepticism versus belief.

and just kind of living in that world because I often my perception before really before I started hanging out with you or places where I met you is that everybody just they're all in they believe everything like there's no limit and now I'm learning that it's kind of like the fun of some of it like is just we got to spice it up but and that

from an outside perspective could make things look wonky, but where do you sit on that scale? Because I kind of pegged you as more of somebody that would be a believer, but then on an investigation, Kristen said you were a little bit more skeptic. So like.

Katie Jo (42:06.253)

I am a yes.

Katie Jo (42:11.12)

Yeah, I'm definitely a heavy skeptic. Now, I feel like with the right amount of evidence, my mind can be swayed. Do I think haunt phenomenon happens? Yes. Do I think you're talking to your dead grandma? I don't know about that. Like, I know that things happen that seem like coincidences. Like I've...

I've got coworkers who say, hey, like, this person was close to me, they died, and now I find pennies everywhere. But there's also that bias of like, if you think about a red car, if you're gonna go buy a red car, you see them everywhere. So, I kind of like to sit on the line of, this is fun to explore, yes, I have seen some bananas things that I cannot explain.

I don't necessarily know where it's coming from. I tend to fall more under the time is not linear crowd and that maybe we are having impressions and stuff is just like, like I think it's great that we're doing this the day after Halloween. Like the veil is thin. So maybe time is just happening on top of itself and something's slipping through.

Maybe we are the ghosts to somebody else 30 years from now and they are like, I don't know, they're like, you have, I got this whiff of this really weird smell and it's just because I lit my candle in my house. Or like, personally, hot phenomenon wise, like I had a surgery one.

Kristin and I decided to go to Bobby Mackey's the day before I had to be at a surgery at like 5 a.m. And so we got home at like 2 a.m., had to like book it and like do the whole pre-surgical scrub and everything. While I am in the shower, I hear something say, hey, Katie, like clear as day. And it's like...

Katie Jo (44:30.674)

Three o'clock in the morning, there is no reason for anything to be saying my name. I live alone. Like, I thought my dad had maybe gotten to my house, but it definitely wasn't his voice.

That would fall under haunt phenomenon, but I also know, hey, I just spent a whole night priming myself for something spooky to happen. I have very little sleep. I'm under a lot of stress because I'm having a surgery in an hour. I will rationalize myself out of belief, even if maybe there is some more credit to it than I'm giving it.

Jared Howell (45:13.453)

I'm in the middle sort of to you. I feel like I've had some crazy experiences So here's one that I've never told anybody so this is first time but when I was a nurse's aid nurses aid suffer a huge amount of burnout because we just work so hard for long shifts were lifting people all day. We're doing a really tough job and When we used to say once you're burnt out just quit

because you're just gonna hurt or kill somebody. And I was burnt out, but there were two little old ladies that I loved that I was like, once they're gone, I'm gonna stay till they're gone. And then I'm out. And I did, but the first one to go was a lady named Beverly that I just loved. We were buddies. I was the only male aide she'd let take care of her. And we knew she was in hospice care and all that. So we knew her time was up.

And I would go sit with her a lot and just kind of hold her hand. She wouldn't talk or anything. She she's very tired and more out. But. I was working the late shift and I was coming out of a hallway and I look up and I saw Beverly down the hall. Walking towards the bathroom now, she didn't walk. She was she was immobile. She's in a wheelchair. So like I just remember my breath catching and I was like, she's gone.

And I went to check on her and sure enough, yeah, she had passed away. So like, what the fuck was that? Right? Like that's where I get hung up because the like time stuff is, makes a lot of sense to me. One of the scariest things I ever had happen to me were footsteps around my bed at night. and that the time stuff that all makes sense. But then we get into territories like that, where I'm like, that's so recent and like,

I don't know that she ever walked while she was in that building. it's. It's just crazy the way I. The way I take it is just to. Deep in my faith and that there's something bigger out there, I guess. And try and not get hung up on the like, what is like, what is that? Why is that those kind of big questions? Do you do you ever try and like?

Katie Jo (47:16.336)

Yeah.

Jared Howell (47:39.917)

console yourself in that way of just like, there's something, or do you believe there's something bigger or are you not even that far of a believer? Are you more skeptic than that?

Katie Jo (47:50.697)

I...

This is a hard one for me to answer because I'm very fluid on my belief here. But like what you explained is what's called a crisis apparition. I don't know if we've talked about those before, but that is one of the most studied segments of haunt phenomenon that is out there. And it's like, Kristen Courtney and I, when we were talking at the Strangers Thing, yeah, Stranger Things.

event that we did with Southern Indiana Tourism, it's like crisis apparitions are kind of similar to that feeling of, hey I haven't heard from grandma and I haven't heard from grandma in a couple of weeks, like maybe I should call her and then she calls you. And like, it's weird, it's weird, you... it's weird. That's about where I land on it.

But a lot of people are experiencing it. It's being studied around the globe. then I just kind of... Like I have... The episode of Haunted Discovery's Family Spirits that I'm gonna be on, we filmed it last year, but it should be coming out sometime in the next couple of months. I go into this a little bit more, but... I would say... Okay. Hold on.

buffering. Have you seen Midnight Mass?

Jared Howell (49:21.867)

You're fine.

Jared Howell (49:27.485)

No, I actually started to watch it, but I got a little bored. My ADD runs mad. It's on my list of things to really like sit down and watch though, because I've seen some clips that I really love of the sheriff in particular. But go on. No. So.

Katie Jo (49:40.178)

He's like my celebrity crush. He would be my celebrity friend. So in Midnight Mass, think it is a beautiful dialogue about religion. Like it is one of my favorite shows of all time. Mike Flanagan, love him to death. But there's a dialogue about what they think happens after we die.

Jared Howell (49:44.161)

He's a hottie.

Katie Jo (50:10.382)

And I tend to fall into that category of like, we started as everything, we came together as what we are right now, and then we go back into the everything. And that's comforting to some people, that scares the hell out of other people, but like to me...

I feel like that gives a little bit more street cred to, okay, maybe as everything I can return to a version of myself, aka like a ghost, and communicate with like Kristen or Courtney. Like, the fact that Kristen has heard my voice while I've been thinking about her makes me think that like, okay, maybe even as living, breathing humans, there is a portion

of us that is still attached to that everything. And I think some people call it the collective consciousness. That kind of gets lumped into some woo-woo stuff, but I don't know. I don't know. I feel like that's why I'm into this is because no one, no one knows and anyone who tells you that they know is a liar or they have really convinced themselves that they know. But like, no one knows.

Jared Howell (51:30.796)

Yeah, I think I mean my favorite thing to say is believe or doubt like 50 % of what like a psychic tells you because I have people in my shows I mean you've seen it happen literally now where I literally start the evening by saying I'm a magician I cheat and then I make a lady cry and then Everybody at the end is like so how long have you had your gift and it's like I just told Six years. I just I read it. I don't know like it's

Katie Jo (51:31.056)

Yes.

Katie Jo (51:55.57)

Right?

Jared Howell (52:00.809)

So it's weird to me that like I understand the wanting to believe in the need to believe. I do have like I don't know I'm trying to say. I think it has a lot to do. My theory, my take right now, which will change in two weeks, is that that makes a lot of sense because I always thought it had something to do with your aptitude for empathy. Like how if that makes sense, right? I'm trying to think of the right words like.

Katie Jo (52:15.143)

Right.

Jared Howell (52:29.249)

I'm a very empathetic person to a frustrating degree for people around me. Like my girlfriend, I'm always like, well, maybe they feel this way. Have you tried talking to him about that on that level? And she's like, wait, pick my side asshole. And I'm like, you're right. I'm sorry. But I just like, I'm always thinking about what other people feel. And I think over time, that's made me sensitive to everything.

So I kind of wonder like if people and like you can kind of tune back into those things, if that makes sense. And also, have you seen ashes under a microscope?

Katie Jo (53:07.449)

haven't. No. Like, is-

Jared Howell (53:09.197)

Google that right now. Can I Google it and show you? want to find it. So yeah, human ashes under a microscope.

Katie Jo (53:14.405)

Yes.

Jared Howell (53:20.385)

You're here typing, I'll edit this out.

Katie Jo (53:20.56)

Thanks.

Katie Jo (53:24.557)

Are you gonna pull it up and share?

Jared Howell (53:27.195)

yeah, I'll see if I can. Let me see.

Katie Jo (53:30.054)

Well, and so like I also worked in on the fringes of funeral service for a while. So like I would go to funeral directors conventions and man the stories that they have. Like there's just too many people across too many areas of life that have stories about something happening. Okay, yeah, beautiful. Like that's what?

Jared Howell (53:55.468)

Yeah, so that I always thought because it looked like space that that plays into that theory that we all just go back to like everything. It's kind of nuts, though. It's real crazy.

Katie Jo (54:05.104)

Yeah, and I think that's beautiful. think that... Yeah, like, I don't know. I...

Katie Jo (54:18.642)

I love it. I hate it. I don't think there's ever going to be a way to prove it. And I don't think that that's a bad thing. I don't think it's a bad thing that there are things left unknown. But I do think one of the cool things about the paranormal field in general, whether you're a Bigfoot person or a ghost person or a woo-woo-rakey person or a psychic vampire, like, I think...

Jared Howell (54:22.021)

Ha!

Katie Jo (54:46.032)

The one thing that bonds us all is that we either know someone who has a story or we have a story and it's something we can't explain and like the body language around people who are like...

I feel like people get really geeked after I've talked about my interests in the paranormal and people come up and be like, well, like you can, you can watch people rationalize themselves out of what they experience. And they're like embarrassed to tell you that, Hey, like I had this, I saw Beverly walking and you just are like, you're like, I know that shouldn't have happened. I know that.

didn't happen, but it did happen.

And I kind of love that. Like, I love that weird spot that people go when they're trying to rationalize the paranormal.

Jared Howell (55:45.174)

Yeah, and I don't know, it's weird that even me, because I'm pretty open to talking about stuff that it's like, I've just never talked about that because it was one, it was very close to me. I think I'm so far removed now that it doesn't like hurt my heart to talk about anymore. But I don't know why. Like, it's kind of interesting to think like why people hold that stuff in because I really do like.

getting into that space, you can just see the weight lifted off someone's shoulders too in a lot of cases where you're like talking to them about experiences and all that. So we've just got a couple of minutes left. I won't hold you too long, but I wanted to talk. Is there anything you can share about your current projects and like what you're working on now? Or is it all under lock and key since you're like writing papers and doing all the hard work? Because there's a bunch of crossover for me there as well.

Katie Jo (56:38.852)

Well, so I mean I could talk about it, but like I also just got super scolded by like my research methods teacher who was like, I don't

think you know what you're talking about. And like, I kind of love that about academia because like, okay, like I, yes, I do not fully know what I'm talking about. And that's part of the reason I'm trying to study it. But trying to put a framework around how you're going to ask questions and research groups of people. Like right now, right now as it is sitting, I want my experiment.

for the sake of this class to be researching people who go through haunted house experiences and attractions. So not like a house that is haunted, but like haunted house attraction. I wanna study people who are going through those and their motivations as to why. Like why are we doing that for fun? You know you're gonna get scared. You know.

In some cases people are going to touch you. There's a level of consent that is exchanged in that whole thing. But as I've been dissecting how I want to do that experiment, I have just been mind blown into how many different questions there are. So right now I'm...

thinking about taking a curveball approach and potentially studying scare actors in relation to deviant leisure.

Jared Howell (58:22.285)

Okay.

Katie Jo (58:22.322)

I don't know if that... do I need to break that down anymore? Okay.

Jared Howell (58:27.149)

Not for me. So Deviant Leisure sounds phenomenal. Different than sex work, but not really. like, okay.

Katie Jo (58:37.294)

Not really, not really. Because there's like a consent, like that is one crossover that's been blowing my mind as I've been looking for literature around this, is that a lot of it has to do with being, okay, so there's a really cool study by Margie Kerr and a few other, I think it's Kerr, Siegel, and Ocini.

They do a study of haunted houses where they strap people up to medical equipment and say, hey, go through this haunted house and they track what spikes as arousal. And arousal can mean anything from like...

getting hot and heavy to, I'm just really excited. But there is a huge crossover in like things that freak us out and things that arouse us. And it's called the Vein Study because it's voluntary, it's like voluntary, voluntary exposure to negative...

I'll have to look it up and send it to you, but it is bananas and I love it. But I've recently been getting into more literature from the Recreational Fear Institute in Denmark and they do all sorts of crazy research that I am here for. Like, I want to take a field trip there so bad.

Jared Howell (01:00:06.957)

That sounds awesome. I didn't even know that was a thing. And I've been in that world forever.

Katie Jo (01:00:10.02)

I didn't either until yesterday.

But they help make games like, like phasmophobia more enticing. And there's some research going out there. it's fairly recent, like since 2020, that is maybe we are using fear to help therapeutically with issues of anxiety and depression. And

I'm kind of here for it. That sounds really cool. Like, if you know you're putting yourself in a situation where you have no control, you don't know what's going to happen, this is like worst case scenario for you. And like, did I ever tell you why I chose haunted houses? I know we talked about haunted houses, but did I ever tell you like why I went that direction? So first of all, it's because I'm an idiot.

Jared Howell (01:00:57.898)

No.

Katie Jo (01:01:03.306)

And so I was a professional Boy Scout in one of my past careers. And Boy Scouts party hard when we go to trainings. And we went to a training down in Gatlinburg with a different Scout council. And they all wanted to go moonshine tasting and I don't drink. So I was like, OK, well, we're in Gatlinburg. Like, what is within walkable distance? The Ripley's, believe it or not, haunted house.

I decided to go walk through alone. It was the stupidest thing I have ever done. I hadn't been in a haunted house since I was a Girl Scout, and so that would have been like 15 years. I haven't been in a haunted house since, and like...

They said at the very beginning, are you sure you want to go through this alone? And I was like, yeah, I can do it. What's the worst that can happen? The sensory overload was insane. Their weird sensory meat wall thing in complete darkness was insane. But at the very beginning, he said, here is a safe word. I want you to say it if you want out.

and I said it probably 25 times and they did not take me out. And so that just like lit something up forever for me and now I'm like really interested in this interaction between... And like to be clear, I would have been mad if they would have pulled me out and I wouldn't have gotten through the end of that. So like, I don't know, I'm really just curious about that intersection.

as well as the rest of the literature around recreational fear.

Jared Howell (01:02:49.963)

what year would that have been?

Katie Jo (01:02:53.266)

Oh Oh gosh, um, I quit the scouts in 2019, so 2018 or 2017? Oh no.

Jared Howell (01:03:02.529)

no, I know, I was gonna say I know a guy that was the director for the Ripley Haunt. I don't know if it, I don't think it was that year though, but I can ask him if it is, I can get you in contact, because that's kind of a neat thing. But yeah, that's, he won't, I mean, nobody cares. The haunted, the haunted attraction industry is like barely an industry, like.

Katie Jo (01:03:16.594)

And I don't want to get them in trouble. I don't want to get them in trouble at all.

Jared Howell (01:03:27.457)

The only people that make money are the fucking owners, so none of us give a shit anymore. Like the old, especially the OGs, like we don't care. We'll talk shit about everybody. We'll do whatever we want. Cause you paid us in pizza, so you deserve what you get. Like I think that's kind of the thought for most of us, but it's interesting. I think you're going to get a lot of different stuff because I will say this is a hot take. This is going to make a bunch of people mad. I won't have any crossover, but

the scare actors that I think enjoy scaring people have lower IQs. This is, I'm just saying, like, I think it has to do with lack of, I can't think of the word I want to use, willpower? That's not exactly right, but like,

Katie Jo (01:04:05.415)

Pah!

Jared Howell (01:04:22.003)

lack of discernment. don't know. I can't think of the right word I want to use, but it would be like, you know, I don't have like maybe lack of self control or I can't think of the right word. There's a specific word that describes exactly what I want to say, but it's like not not being able to pull yourself back. Like I'm going to buy that hat. I want that hat. I'm just going to get it. Like I just do what I want. Like those types of people. Yeah, they lack self-restraint and.

Katie Jo (01:04:42.832)

like self-restraint.

Jared Howell (01:04:49.931)

The rest of us are just theater kids that didn't break it. So we get to play dress up and do characters. Because a lot of haunted houses, there are some that'll assign you a character. But the haunted houses that I ran always became sort of more popular because I would be like, here's the story of the haunted house. I want everybody to write a character. And then let's go to the costume room and see what we can find to make your character.

Or go to the costume room now and find some pieces. And that's what brought, I would see kids that were just like closed up and shy put on a mask and like bust out of their shell. so I think, and I'm that way too. Like I would, I could put on something and then immediately be like, I'd have a weird voice all of a sudden. And I'd be like a different character, like a different person almost. So I think that.

that part of like the theater kid really comes out for like half of us and like I sent you contact for my friend Maddie who's she's she was handed a role of sister temperance at not scary farm this year so and she's crushing it like seeing her stories and stuff but she's very she's she's maybe a tweener because I've seen her do some really scary shit I think we all have

So I want to be clear, I'm not saying just because you like to scare people. I'm talking about like everybody knows if you're a scare actor and you happen to listen to this, you know a guy that like goes too far all the time and like corners people in his room and doesn't let him go. Those are the people I'm talking about. Yeah, but I think a lot more of us are just theater kids that like to role play and like dress up. And then.

Katie Jo (01:06:26.896)

Hmm, interesting.

Jared Howell (01:06:39.255)

Customers I also think there's a big crossover between people that just want to scape and horror movies are their thing And then I've done the extreme haunted houses where we like waterboard people and stuff those You cannot convince me otherwise that a hundred percent of people that go through that are not it's not a kink for them Because that was the first thing the first the first hour. I was there. I was like, this is a kink thing I'm doing a kink thing like

Katie Jo (01:07:07.783)

Yeah?

Jared Howell (01:07:08.005)

And it was, I felt, I felt gross. Like I couldn't, I couldn't continue. I, so I worked behind the scenes because I kind of helped a bunch of the haunts in this area anyway, at least learn how to do touch haunting safely. So from that perspective, Ted, my friend Teddy and I knew like, you know, this is how you grab someone's hair. This is how you like, so it was like stuff like that. There were, could teach people to do safely. So we kind of worked from behind the scenes after that because

It was just too weird for me. But it's an interesting thing. I do think it's fun that you've already highlighted that there's a crossover there.

Katie Jo (01:07:44.934)

Well, and if it eases your mind at all, the Recreational Fear Institute has done a couple of experiments on haunted houses and they divided the customer base into three groups. So you have the adrenaline junkies who are in it and that's probably like your kink class. Like those are the people who are just in it to like feel. And then you have the white knucklers who are in it.

for some level of personal growth. Like they wanna be scared so they can prove themselves as brave, so they can like get that ego boost. And then you have what's called the dark hopers. And those are the people who are a little bit of both, where like they get excited by the fear, but they're not fully in it for the personal growth, but it like happens that it meshes really well.

And that's the research I'm kind of like diving headfirst into right now. So I'm going to need to stay connected with you, Jared, about like who I can talk to because I think my research is going to end up ultimately being interviewing scare actors and interviewing people who go through extreme haunted attractions to figure out why.

Jared Howell (01:09:02.538)

Yeah, mean, scare actors are going to be where your your like good information is because we've done it all. I will say like, I mean, there's going to be a lot of bullshit to sift through to, but I can get you in touch with people that are good at what they do. So but we understand it on like a much higher level. It's it's insane, though, and I think there's a there's another customer. So it's always funny to see people like talk about it. But there are people that just go through to laugh like.

Katie Jo (01:09:13.082)

yeah.

Jared Howell (01:09:30.294)

to just have fun. Like they're not scared, they're not having a bad time. And I think that was a big part of my training is, cause you would get kids that would be like, well it's my job to scare people and like that guy's not scared of me. Like what do I do? And they get so disheartened that they're not scary. And I'm like, you make them laugh. Like that's the only thing you can do is make them laugh. And I think.

Katie Jo (01:09:55.1)

Yes.

Jared Howell (01:09:55.191)

There are people that come through just for the shits and giggles of it. They like to laugh at their friends being scared. They like to laugh at us when we do funny things, because sometimes like people are scared of the dumbest shit. So I don't even know my I guess the best example I have is. It was Halloween once is like the first haunted house ever worked, but we thought it would be funny for all our haunt characters to dress up. So my friend Tad, he's like scary from the neck down, but his face.

is just Paul Stanley's kiss makeup. And so he just pops out of a corner and goes, I can't hear you. Like Paul Stanley would yell and like scared the shit out of like a whole bunch of people. And we're dying laughing. But like we're a lot of times we're not even doing anything that scary. People are just chicken shits. So it's so.

Katie Jo (01:10:27.295)

Okay.

Jared Howell (01:10:53.14)

There's a whole class of people that just know my girlfriend's gonna be scared of everything. So let's just go for it.

Katie Jo (01:11:01.102)

Okay, yeah, I'm so excited to dive further into this. Like, I'm not allowed to, like, start actually doing research, just to clarify, until I get IRB approval. So I probably... I'm gonna be in the building stage of this until next fall, but I think we'll be ready to rock and roll next fall. I'm very excited to, like, go down this path. Scare actors, don't think anyone has studied yet. Scare actors and professional wrestlers. There's...

Jared Howell (01:11:09.484)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Katie Jo (01:11:30.359)

very little data on. And I think they're very similar.

Jared Howell (01:11:34.157)

There's a huge crossover of professional wrestlers that do scare actors, scare acting too. Like a lot of the local guys work at haunted houses and they're good at it too. So we can, like we would do crazy shit just because my friend, Tad, Paul Stanley, he is a pro, he's like an indie wrestler.

Katie Jo (01:11:41.65)

Really?

Jared Howell (01:11:59.565)

So we would do crazy shit because we would just teach the little haunt girls how to post and how to take bumps. And so they'd walk in a room and like my friend Teddy would have a girl like a wait there's this girl little Emily that he worked with but he would grab her by the throat and pick her all the way up and Teddy's like six one. So he would just have her on the wall and like people would be like what the fuck like it was gnarly looking just because we'd teach them like.

We didn't do anything like dangerous, but we teach them like pro wrestling techniques to like make fake combat better because theater pro wrestlers do that better than theater. They do it better than a lot of like any live entertainment. So the best place to learn how to fake murder somebody is from a pro wrestler because they're going to know they're going to be able to teach you how to hit someone without hurting them. They're to be able to teach you how to slam someone sort of safely. That shit still hurts. And like

Yeah, it's crazy. So there's huge crossovers everywhere. It's nuts.

Katie Jo (01:12:59.346)

Can I ask you for a quick point of clarification though? You said like how to take bumps and I'm thinking like bumps. Like what do you mean?

Jared Howell (01:13:03.359)

Yeah.

Jared Howell (01:13:09.258)

no, my bad, ask Shiloh about bumps. So I'll edit this out. But it's, yeah, so no, it's when you take a bump, it's when you like, when you fall, like fall down, when you get slammed, when you go over the top rope, when you, yeah, those are called bumps. So, cause you're bumping. So.

Katie Jo (01:13:13.842)

no.

You don't have to.

Katie Jo (01:13:31.73)

Okay.

Katie Jo (01:13:35.634)

I totally was, I've never heard that. like, this, I thank you for inviting me on this because I am learning so much talking to you. and I feel like that's a big problem in academia is that we live in academia and not in the worlds that we're studying sometimes. So it's great to get the jargon down and know that, you know.

Jared Howell (01:13:44.94)

You

Katie Jo (01:14:00.048)

Because I was just thinking that scare actors are teaching people how to use cocaine.

Jared Howell (01:14:06.77)

No, no. So I also I'm total carny trash. I mean, we just talked about it. I used the word art earlier, but then I immediately said I was a grifter and that's more accurate. I think I just know all the lingo. And now like in wrestling, too, there's a terminology called kayfabe. Are you familiar with kayfabe? And.

Katie Jo (01:14:26.918)

I feel, I can't remember if you told me or if Shiloh told me, but someone told me about this and I don't remember what it means.

Jared Howell (01:14:34.252)

And so kayfabe is like, the best way to describe it is like back in the heyday of wrestling, like the late 70s, 80s, you wouldn't see like Hulk Hogan and Macho Man in a car together because one of them is a bad guy and one of them is a good guy. So they keep, they are in character. Like if you saw Hulk Hogan at a bar in the 80s, he was fucking Hulk Hogan. He wasn't Terry Bollea. Like that is kayfabe.

Katie Jo (01:14:53.33)

Gotcha.

Jared Howell (01:15:03.198)

So they would keep it up. They would keep up the act. And I that's kind of broken in pro wrestling right now. So many people know it's not real. So many people we call it. They call them the dirt sheets, which is where like all the insider trading goes on. Like word on the streets. Chris Jericho just signed a WWE and he's leaving like all that stuff like those all of its broken, all of its fucked up now. So I've just assumed that people and

Wrestling has a wrestling uses a lot of carny terminology haunted housing houses use it a lot and Magic uses a lot. So I just assume everybody knows I'm terrible at it. But yeah, bumps are Taking a bump hitting the ground doing something In that nature that's gonna hurt a little bit and then posting I said posting that is when you take a body slam if I'm being slammed it's my job to

hold part of my weight. like traditionally one hand on the upper thigh and then I'm also jumping into it and then I post on the neck and the thigh. So I'm holding half my body weight so that the person slamming me can be a big tough guy and walk around and knock their microphone over and like slam. So there are all sorts of techniques like that that you can learn from different areas. So we were really in the thick of it and just

by pure luck. were all theater kids, so we pioneered. People are going to get mad at that too, because there's different areas. We're doing different things at the same time. But for us in Kentucky, we were like the first haunt that had a storyline. And so we were bringing that kind of in. And then also two of our friends there were wrestlers. So we were like, well, how do we incorporate that? Like somebody one day was like, well, just couldn't do that. Or like

He would be like, let's fuck around and find out. So just by being shithead kids with a bunch of different hobbies, kind of, we kind of lucked into making something way bigger out of it, at least for that industry. So, and remind me, I don't know if I still have it. If not, I can try and source you one, but, my God, I'm going to forget. There's a haunted house troop from Chicago called Sven Puss. They are since disbanded.

Katie Jo (01:17:28.882)

Thank

Jared Howell (01:17:31.117)

Um, but they wrote a scare actors guide. It was like a zine that they distributed that was like best practices. Um, and we worked with, we talked to them quite a bit on my old podcast, which I can send you a link to too. It would probably be very insightful, but I did a podcast called code yellow, a scare actors podcast. So a code yellow is when a customer pisses themselves. Uh, that's where the name comes from. Uh, there's code, like we have codes.

Katie Jo (01:17:48.273)

Yeah.

Katie Jo (01:17:56.187)

Okay.

Jared Howell (01:18:00.596)

radio codes for like cleanup and aisle 10 essentially. So that's where the name came from, but it's just me and my friend Teddy talking to scare actors and probably the most insightful portion is we did 30 honors in 30 days during the pandemic. So we did 30 interviews in 30 days talking to just people that we looked up to or thought were interesting and like their scare acting techniques and all that. So remind me to get you all of this info because it'll be good for you.

Katie Jo (01:18:30.502)

That would be wonderful, because that in and of itself could be an experiment. Like, you can do content analysis on what people are saying, find patterns, find all sorts of different... I am loving this conversation. Thank you so much, I'm learning so much.

Jared Howell (01:18:45.276)

Yeah, no problem.

So, and if you have any questions, let me know or if you need, if you needed, like I said, I've got ends for everywhere, even with just the Halloween parade or like if you need to post up at a haunt or anything, let me know. I can get you in contact with people that I think would love to do that, especially, I'll keep saying it, American Horoplex, that's the place to study right now. It's the best haunt in the city. And there also, like Travis is the owner. He's...

He's carny trash like me. He's more Connie trust in me. He studied under an old grifter. So he's just his ideas are nuts. So they bought an old movie theater was like their first haunted house and they would do shit like popcorn scents and like all sorts of stuff in there. Because I just remember somebody being like, is this place haunted? I smell popcorn.

And they would be like, yeah, yeah. It's like, it was just stupid shit like that. Just being goofy. Nothing like no harm. But it was, I don't know. They're just they're intro. They're an interesting group of people. And they also had to. They had to low tech it for a long time because they didn't have a huge budget, so they really put like. The real work in so and that's another magician term for this is how you really do it, because we're.

I'm peeling back the curtain too far, but we say the real work because a lot of magicians share their secrets in books, but they don't give the whole thing away. And then later they'll be like, yeah, here's the real work. then like, so the way I taught it is not how I actually do it. so it's kind of the same thing there where they had to tough it out so long that they actually became innovative being kind of a low budget on so.

Katie Jo (01:20:37.572)

So can I, I know we're like probably at time or way past time, but can I ask maybe an intersectional question between haunted houses and paranormal? How often, cause like one of the theories is that it's kind of like the Monsters Inc theory where like, yeah, scariness feeds whatever haunted is or haunting it is.

Jared Howell (01:20:50.165)

Sure.

Katie Jo (01:21:02.428)

But so does laughter. like goofing around you're going to get more EVPs when you're like goofing around. Or more paranormal activity when people are producing a lot of any emotion. How often have you either experienced or heard about someone having a real paranormal experience while at a haunted attraction?

Do those worlds cross much?

Jared Howell (01:21:34.762)

Yeah, in almost a manufactured way though. So I think we've sort of talked about this. I'm trying to decide if I want to.

edit this out and just tell you for your research or talk about it discreetly. So I worked at a haunted house in the early 2000s and we faked a haunting for a TV show. And I'm so afraid I'm going to get shit from magicians for being a fake psychic and also the paranormal crowd for like, you faked a haunting, you're trash. Yeah, I did.

Katie Jo (01:21:47.666)

Thank

Katie Jo (01:22:13.316)

I mean, people know it.

Jared Howell (01:22:15.05)

But I'm coming clean. I'm coming clean. And that's also why I want to help you not get fooled. But by doing that, we could call it amping up the kids, right? We could call it like amping up the paranormal investigators. Really the paranormal investigators come in first. And then I think, so let me back this statement up. So.

Katie Jo (01:22:18.482)

We're going to wait.

Jared Howell (01:22:41.92)

We had a local paranormal team come into our haunted house to investigate. This only happened because we sold the bullshit story that it was a real haunted location. It was not, it was the basement of a print company. Like use your common sense. But we sold that it used to be a real thing. And people would come in and they would be like, it was just the rule, it was kayfabe.

like, is this place this is where the morgue was and we're like, yeah. And the. So people were already hyping themselves up and then the owner is kind of where. I get some of my shadier aspects of my career because he was just like, sure, paranormal investigators, if they find something, who knows? That was just his thing. Let him play in the basement. If they find something, it'll be cool.

Katie Jo (01:23:14.45)

Ha

Jared Howell (01:23:39.085)

And it also just having them there adds to credibility. So we did that. And then the kids started hyping themselves up a bit. And then we started fucking with the kids because there's this big misconception that haunted houses have lots of trap doors and lots of like secret hallways and places. They do not, but this one did. So like it's the only haunted house I've ever.

been in that's truly like that too. Like where I could get anywhere. Like we, we still joke that like that's where I'm going in the zombie apocalypse. Cause I can just Rambo the shit out of anything in that building if the wall pattern is still the same. I don't know if it is now, but it's, yeah. So we would go through secret tunnels and stuff that not even, cause we're managers. knew where all, all the doors were.

so we could get in the back and do all sorts of stuff to mess with people. And that makes it bigger and then weird stuff started happening. So the only weird thing I ever actually saw down there myself was it was a cement wall, because we're in a basement and there was a clock hanging on the wall. And we were talking about something and I literally think I made a comment about like making fun of the kids that were scared of the ghosts and then a clock.

like flew diagonally down off the wall. Like it didn't just like fall, it flew. So there's, yeah, I think there's, and this is kind of what I'm super into too, because...

Katie Jo (01:25:15.442)

Hmm.

Jared Howell (01:25:25.824)

Yeah, I'm reading Trickster and the Paranormal right now. I don't know if you're familiar with that book, but it's kind of about boundaries and like how lack of boundaries or blurring the line between reality can entice the trickster kind of energy and in that vibe. So I really love that, especially for where I'm at.

Katie Jo (01:25:31.154)

Mm-mm.

Katie Jo (01:25:45.959)

Yeah.

Jared Howell (01:25:53.345)

But yeah, I think that's probably my first real experience with that thing of like hyping a bunch of people up and it sort of becoming its own thing.

Katie Jo (01:26:03.59)

Maybe we should just get together as a friend group and get real hype and do weird shit and have it just be us and see if something happens.

Jared Howell (01:26:13.268)

Yeah, so I'd like to do the mediums or something similar outside of October because I was thinking about that like this week actually about how that was kind of the goal for me was to get everybody hyped up and in a space and to see if something spooky could happen. But then we were also dog shit tired because it's October that like by the time the investigations happened, it was just like, have fun kids. I'm going to sit in this chair.

Katie Jo (01:26:32.836)

I hope you were.

Katie Jo (01:26:39.729)

Yeah.

Jared Howell (01:26:42.558)

So yeah, I would like to do some shit like that and see what we can get going. I do think that you need an unknown element. This is just me talking out of my ass right now. But anytime that kind of stuff has happened to me, it's been with somebody I don't know that doesn't know me that doesn't know the situation. So I feel like. Yeah.

Katie Jo (01:27:05.148)

So bring in someone. To someone it's just a girl's night.

Jared Howell (01:27:11.348)

Yeah, absolutely. Because I think you need that person to kind of like get spooked. And that's when they feed. They really feed the energy. I think it's like that kind of a thing.

Katie Jo (01:27:25.498)

Makes me think of Tony from the Odd Fellows. He really misses you by the way. He was like, if you ever want to come back, you can come back.

Jared Howell (01:27:33.292)

Oh, I need to pay my application fee. Damn it. Somebody like Heath reached out to me and was like, you should do this. I was like, I will. then. October, so, yeah, no, I'll come back, but.

Katie Jo (01:27:34.962)

What the?

Katie Jo (01:27:44.562)

Yes. And I told everybody, was like, listen, like October is an off limits month. Like I'm not going to be around. none of the people I know we're going to be around. Like we love it, but my God, leave us alone.

Jared Howell (01:28:00.66)

Same, same. But yeah, thanks for talking to me. I appreciate it. Where, like, just so I have an audio recording of it too, where can everybody find you in Boo 812?

Katie Jo (01:28:16.528)

So, Boo812.org is our website. I am not very good at our social medias. Kristin, Courtney, and I all have individual social media presences outside of the at Boo812.underscore502. And my personal one is at Kajogles, which is K-A-J-O-G-L-E-S. Awesome.

Jared Howell (01:28:41.032)

Awesome. Well, go follow Katie. She's doing some cool shit and I'm going to keep that up. I'm going to say y'all like I'm from Kentucky because I am my Southern is going to come out at the end of every episode. So go follow Katie and Boo812. They're doing some cool things, especially we didn't even talk about this, but you guys just like revolutionized haunted tours, right? Do you have a quick do you have a quick second? I'm going to post that like like

Katie Jo (01:29:03.282)

A little bit,

Katie Jo (01:29:08.539)

Yeah.

Jared Howell (01:29:09.376)

Can you talk about that for just like two minutes and then I'll stop torturing you and let you go?

Katie Jo (01:29:14.064)

Yeah, so as part of my MBA journey, bachelor's in communication, MBA is business, and now I'm in a dual MA and PhD program in sociology, but as part of my MBA program.

I studied paranormal edutainment and its impact on communities. And so since I did that and published basically a thesis work out of it, I started partnering with Southern Indiana Tourism.

We had been leading in-person paranormal tours for like the last 10 years in Jeffersonville. Every single one of them sold out. But now that we have gotten more developed in our lives, like people have kids, people are writing books, people are out doing all sorts of different things. Like we figured it would be easier and more accessible to the community if we did an audio video tour of downtown Jeffersonville, which has

nine different haunts, nine different haunted locations that gave us permission to talk about them. I will say I know that there are far more hauntings in Jeffersonville than the stops on the tour, but we dive real deep into the history. We partnered with the Historical Society for the information and then like Jeffersonville is just crazy and scary and weird and like they lost a whole cemetery. Who loses?

whole cemetery and then build apartments on top of it.

Jared Howell (01:30:49.356)

Oh, I gotta get in those. That's crazy. I've never said it out loud like that or heard it said out loud, but yeah, they did do that. My grandpa was murdered down there too. So go take that tour. Maybe you can talk to my grandpa. So, well, cool. Yeah, I love it. Everybody follow Katie. Katie, thanks so much for coming on. I appreciate you so much for taking your time. I know you're busy, so I will, I'm gonna stop recording.

Katie Jo (01:31:01.926)

Yeah, like a block away from...

Let's do it!